Drew Mackinnon: Teleology of the Temple

17:25reason and Crowley went went east also, you know, because he had um had a very like Greek friendship, you know, like ancient Greek like kind of like, you know, there was a certain level of of admiration that bordered on on, you know, um uh the romantic on in the case of Crowley. Crowley really romanticized Bennett and he he literally dropped everything um to leave and and go to the east and and and you know obviously he came back pretty disillusioned because Crowley was a man who um couldn't do

17:58what the teachings required of him and when when he found out that was the case he blamed the teachings instead of himself but um what I see going on nowadays yes absolutely history is repeating itself and it always will But it's kind of like like primary colors. You start somewhere and you've got like a primary you've got primary colors. So these are the basic ingredients. Okay? And let's just say for the sake of our analogy, they manifest as a triad. Red, blue, and yellow. Now, what happens

18:30is you end up with another triad, right? another pattern that is similar to to to the the primaries but contains a permutation of them. So you get red and blue mixed together and they make purple. You get um red and yellow and you've got what? Green? No, orange. And then and then uh blue blue and yellow make green. So now you've got this purple, green, orange thing and it's another triad and it's of of these these specific distinct colors but they're they're slightly different

19:10because the the the the previous factors permutated with one another and now create a similar pattern but not exactly the same. And the one the reason why I say this is because I I do see a lot of innovation and I see a lot of people coming to the four to talk about um to talk about certain things and and share space. And the only thing that I'm noticing that is probably different from the way from in the it's it's different from the way I think at least from my research I've never seen it manifest this way

19:46before. um is nowadays you have people approaching these subjects and it's not it's not an overwhelming majority thank thank God but it's a very vocal community um that approaches magic and and these subjects from a point of I want to say postmodern reductionism and borderline atheistic materialism. And I'm not sure that we've seen spirituality um literally intercourse and dealings with spirits done in such a well never before in a postmodern context because this is the postmodern

20:35age, right? It hasn't happened before. Um but uh you know this you've get like you've got like these primary ingredients like the enlightenment and cartesianism and nominalism that and and and the educational institutions which have essentially installed all of us um without our knowing uh with this perceptual software with which to look at the world without even realizing it. Right? a computer program doesn't even realize it's a computer program. So, it's just it's just doing its job. And uh and that's

21:14that's kind of the thing I see people Yes, there's this this vocal kind of and I'll be frank, it's it's the grimoire and solomatic solommonic communities online. Um and those communities will eventually just tear each other apart. They will eat each other alive. Um because that's that is that is the fouian consequence of making pacts with spirits. It never ends well. Falling only feels like flying. Um, and but the interesting thing is that they're approaching it through this extremely

21:46I don't I don't like I talk a lot on this show especially about how like co cognitive dissonance doesn't have to persist if you're able to hold these two things in front of you and and give give them their own domains of authority. But I think that they need to be working in tandem with each other. And what I see going on there is that they're holding these two things as sort of mutually exclusive, but they're not working in a in a tandem. They're shutting one door to enter a room and turning their back

22:16on the reality of the other thing and they're toggling. Um, and I I think that's that's a very unhealthy thing to do because essentially it's just escapism and um it it will create a bifurcation in the personality if you're engaging magical faculties. That's why one of the first things you do when you get involved in an esoteric order is you take on a nomen mysticum or a magical motto, what have you. You know, it's it's a Latin, Greek or or Hebrew typically, right? Scriptural Western

22:45scriptural language. Um that's, you know, uh that's your quote unquote name now in the in the order, but it's supposed to exemplify some sort of inspiration or aspiration of the candidate. And it's because you are undergoing uh through some of these orders and by the activation and application of your own magical faculties, you're undergoing a period of of um I would say attenuated self-induced psychosis and ultimately the whole idea of alchemical initiation is that you're

23:22supposed to reintroduce all these the salvia coagula. The coagula has to happen again under the opices of spirit and that's the saving grace. That's why you don't go over the edge. Many of us do. Um, and I think that that's missing in that community that that they're dealing very unhealthily with this very like western university system, leftrained, highly highly rational. And then on the other on the other hand, they're talking about spirits and stuff like that. — So that's that's what I see kind of

23:53different now, but same but different. you kind of like what you kind of just clicked for me was kind of like you know this this new wave not new wave but it's like okay I read a book and I go to college and I heard that DMT is the way to meet the spirit right so it kind of goes into that like I don't really believe in God but I love chemistry and I'm going to play you know I'm going to play with this a little bit and see where I get and it can leave you know it's a it's a like you said it's a very

24:21slippery slope and I think you've we've seen a lot of people that can get um can kind of fall down it. — Yeah. I like to I like to call it Rick and Morty metaphysics. — Yeah. I mean all these things like even you know we're talking about you know there's so there's so many new thing even when you're watching YouTube there might be an ad about hey take ketamine and let's you know this is going to help you this is going to do this and that. So we're completely eliminating this

24:50idea of true source, right? Your own ability to maybe create that healing. So you're there's a master to it, right? So how strong are you as an initiate if you still have the master if that is maybe a substance or you know I understand the ancient mystery schools from studying them. I mean I understand the the use of these narcotics and whatnot, but there's a certain way to do them where they never do them again. Does that resonate with you? Where it's not like, hey, I use this every Friday because I want to

25:21go into deep samati. — Yeah. Yeah. I'm micro. — You train yourself enough, you'll naturally go into it. — Exactly. That's what that's what you should do. — What you should be doing. — Yeah. — We're on the We're on the We're going to be the the uh Hey, you should be You should be Yeah. It's It's because I have friends and you know, my friends are totally atheist and they're still atheists and they're still they're still

25:45consuming, right? We're all consuming whether it's from school, whether it's from TV, you're consuming, but um there's no idea of consuming source in any of it. It's like, hey, this guy's got the answers or this doctor's going to feed me, pump me full of testosterone so I can get big, you know, instead of just like, hey, discipline diet, all these things. So, we've eliminated ritual and creating self-ritual. Whereas, if we go into the routine of consumerism, right? There's always a

26:11need for this. I need coffee. I need coffee. I need coffee. So, it's just it's interesting and I love tying it back into magic. It's cool. Yeah. — Yeah. — I kind of that what you're talking about, I kind of view that model of interpretation or handling of this style of approach um you know like this postmodern sort of thing. I wonder what you think, but it seems like some potentially like intermediary transitionary state. Like if you think of like society and its eb

26:45and its flow um being that we've gone so far in this other direction and now it seems as if the tide is sort of turning back in terms of spiritual knowledge. um that that sort of interpretation and approach is kind of just the result of the societal momentum that we're currently finding ourselves in that now that these things are kind of reemerging. It's the default programming that has been programmed into our culture that that's just how they are. That's just how people generally are

27:28are are thinking about how to handle information because we've I think it seems that we've been deprived of like spiritual holism in a in a sense for for so long that now that we have the freedom and the information all accessible and things are just like flooding out and everything you can possibly think of you can find online or in your social social media or whatever it is that it seems like I don't I don't know if it's going to be something that's sustainable by any means but it

28:10seems like it makes sense that it is the way our society is approaching things. Does that resonate with you? Do do you see what I'm saying there? — Yeah. Yeah. And I know I know Ike is gonna is gonna follow up with this. It's like this idea of building the temple is all exterior to everybody right now, right? Like I was saying, it's like we've gotten so far away from source of when I say source, it could be the amalinga, you know, within yourself. So you've gotten to a point where society

28:41has painted a version that is happiness which can be you end up basically even more unhappy the more you are subscribing to some of these ideas whether it's vast vastly altering your mind through you know different gurus or different you know things like you have to be very careful when you're going on the journey right and I know Ike is a huge Um I know we both probably campaign you know when people ask is like hey you know you know if you are studying or you're on the you know you're constantly

29:18talking about spirituality or different ideas people notice I'll ask you questions and you as a not saying you're a spirit guide I think that's like a terrible term for anything I just you have to be you have to be very careful with people you know because you can notice you'll notice I know Ike does and I know I'm sure Sky as well like your friends or people that have been consuming a lot of this stuff and I'm not saying it's all negative. I don't live like a monk,

29:44you know, but I'm also you have to be very delicate with how much you're consuming outside influence because we see the result of influence whether it is even even with the orders, right? Ike, we can say this. There's some guys that are like, "Hey, I'm a Freemason. This is the end all beall. That's it. This is how I do things." It's like any any Mason. It's like I say this to anybody. You know Mason by how they treat a nonmason. — You know if that was the real idea of

30:10what masonry the idea of, you know, hey, I follow this moral compass. I treat people with equality and all this. That means you treat all people with equality. So it's not just isolated to one group. There's no perfect there's no perfect institution, right? So that's why you study different things rather than just kind of following suit. And it can get like we said, there's a lot of there's a lot of different rabbit holes you can go. But um back to what you were saying Sky about, you know, how far are

30:38we going? It's like now we got the AI and the influence and it's like I'm you know because I'm raising a child, you know, my son, we don't watch TV anymore. And when I do watch it, I remember why I don't watch it anymore. And that's at night. I'll get like my little like snippets of stuff and I'm like I'm like you notice how these things can change your entire outlook on life. you know, the music you're listening to, the movies you watch, all these things,

31:04— even the uh the rate of interruption, even if you are to watch something, you know, say you're watching a a show on YouTube or your kids watching a show on YouTube, cuz you know, that's happened to me a lot. And just the constant popping up of commercials, the interruption, the waiting for the ad, some ad coming on, you're skipping the ad, then back into the show, and then it's like this pattern that's being constrained into the child of this constant interruption. Go ahead.

31:32— Think think about this too. What's really interesting now get real granular on that same vein and think about when you're watching a television show or a movie and how many edits or cuts there are. You don't even unless you're involved in the editing of film, you don't even [ __ ] realize that the camera is changing angles every seven seconds. Now, think about what that does, right? This is the first time in human history that we've ever been subject to that kind of perceptive jarring perceptive

32:06switch that has never ever happened before. And when that's going on, your brain is in an alpha state. Your brain is in an alpha state. I mean, it's and then we're we're looking at anxiety and we're looking at like ADHD and we're looking at like autism and I mean, and I'm not saying all these things have one cause, but I'm saying like it's the overarching we are we have so many blind spots to this stuff. We just think it's normal and it's not. We because we were

32:35born into a hellscape and so — this is about to get really good. likely I'm like okay — born into like a post technological hellscape and it's like oh it's just [ __ ] normal that all this stuff is going on. But what but the the the essence of the question here is is spirituality because that's what you asked to to your point. That's the thing that is affecting us because when you're born into these systems and you're born into these things that are constantly

33:06acting and training acting upon and training your consciousness, it just goes back to what I was saying before. It is installing or altering perceptual software. And so there there is no going back from that. You can't — absolutely — you cannot go back from that. You can only find a new way, which unfortunately must involve uncovering all your blind spots so that you can at least have an idea of what it was like to be a human when humans could be human and not and not influenced um

33:42on a cognitive level to the degree that they have been by technology and the agendas that are inherent to that. I mean, and and you know, look at look at any industry. Who ends up at the top of the industry? Who ends up making all the money? — Is this a question for us? — Yeah. Yeah. Who who — um you know, it's you watch the industry, whether it is music, whether it is Hollywood, right? It's never the it's never the person you're seeing. It's the executives. is a guy that's 90

34:16years old that owns the studio or owns a record label. — That's it. Technology. — Yeah. Technology owns you. And it's in, you know, you just made me think of something. And this is about to get squirly, but I'll let you keep. — Every single time there's been a technological revolution, the people who end up on top in owner are in ownership of the technology. So when radio stations invented broadcasting, boom, they own the radio regardless of whose music is being played. When they then

34:49went further and they they developed recording equipment, they own the recording equipment. when it's, you know, the movie studios, we own the cameras, we own the film, we own the It's the same thing with the with, you know, with with the technology we're seeing now, major mega corporations, tech corporations like Google and things like that. Um, uh, you know, pioneering this, you know, meta now with the the virtual reality and and different AI platforms. I mean, these people are going to these things, you know, they've

35:21they've they've found a way to to maintain the illusion that they're open source. Um, and and but but the issue here is that really we we have been introduced I I want I want to maybe just pitch it to you real quick, Sky. Like alchemically, you have something, right? You have a couple of different components and essentially like we are adding something We're we are adding something that is going to sort of we're adding a third thing to our little alchemical mixture here. And so

35:57once those chemicals at least on a on the level of just basic chemistry once certain chemicals interact with one another they change. It's like soap making right like when I make soap I use lie I use oil and I use distilled water. And the soponification process happens when those three things are introduced at a certain time and at a certain temperature. Once those three things have congealed, I cannot reduce them to lie, fat, and distilled water. Again, this is the essence of human cognition

36:29and the the advent of this level of uh of of technology. So, so that is what has happened. And I think that ultimately I don't I'm not going to pretend I know why, but I think all things happen. There's some kind of tilos for them that I am too small a cog and too large a machine to understand. I think we have to go through this. But um I don't that doesn't mean it's going to have a happy ending. We just have to go through it. And um uh I I think that there's another way that that maybe

37:01nobody can see. Nobody will be able to see it for another 50 to 100 years. Like oh, it had to work out that way. Well, you look, you know, you said you said there were so many things that were running through my head. Um, you know, you're talking about how, you know, the messaging, right? Or the celebrity becomes the spirit. We've seen that over the last several years and then what has actually happened is the celebrity is no longer and it's all politicians are now the spirit, the end all. It's

37:31like the behavior. Um years ago I used to joke around with my dad talk about the fall realm and you look at the archetype of what that looks like and you see how things can go and that's what history is you know I always talk about history and how steady or whatever you're whatever you're into whatever whatever culture you come from there is a story that is so familiar to the now if that makes sense no matter where you come from whatever race whatever it's there's something there that it relates

38:03to now. And I was, you know, funny thing you you said something that clicked to me about the Sopranos. Anybody's watched seasons of the Sopranos, early ones of the 90s, you'll see the like, and I'm not saying this, but I'm like, why are they talking about AD 80 ad so much in here? Why are they talking about Prozac? cuz and then I was randomly I was watching it and I started researching it and I was like I don't remember ADD when I was a kid and it was it was first discovered in like the late 80s but then

38:32the the the pharmaceutical companies got involved and I'm like oh look at this messaging and I remember the early 2000s every kid has got ADHD everybody's on ADD and rolin I'm like oh it's right here in what you're consuming you're watching it so it's like it's like you're the manifestation of the magic when you listen to it you know when you listen to the sorcerer the magician right that's Why we're I mean I know you study it. We all study it here. We're

38:56not you know but you understand the idea everybody talks about black and white magic. There is a real difference there a massive difference because I believe and you can chime in but white magic is to the individual sense I believe where it's like to the the being of creating your own connection with source through magic or through spirituality. I'll just I'll just use that term rather than using magic to manipulate which if you understand the idea of manipulation and how magic is the art of manipulation it's like

39:34where are you where's your balance so I always tell people like what you're influenced by what you're listening to all these things we're talking about are so important and you watch it you watch your friends that are bought into some of these whatever it is and I myself as like I take I take um a lot of po a lot of pleasure of being like hey I would never influence somebody with how they should believe. I think that's just like the lowest form of of being to me any what I mean lowest form is like you know

40:05people using these new wave terms of high vibration low vi you know [ __ ] that's just like hey this is a hat [ __ ] hashtag like what is this [ __ ] so — it's more so the manipulation of when you watch it from a alchemical standpoint whether you want to tie in um you know the magic in it you're just like do you sit silent and I feel like that is something that is part of it. It's like some people just aren't supposed to find the way in a weird sense. And you'll know that in history

40:35people call it NPC, right? That's like a term everybody [ __ ] throwing that around. I'm like, hey, you you know, it's like are you going to let somebody know or you going to influence them? It's like they have to find their own way. So people that are listening, maybe you're having problem with your family or [ __ ] or whatever it is, it's like, hey, they can go down the rabbit hole. Is it are do you have to curveball them maybe through the mistakes? I know [ __ ] I made a ton of mistakes when I was

41:00younger. It's like if there was always somebody there to catch me. It's like sooner or later I'm gonna find a bigger [ __ ] cliff to jump off of. You know what I mean? — Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I You see a lot of that too with people trying to like quote unquote save their families. It's like get [ __ ] real. You just want to feel vindicated by a group of people who you felt doubted you your entire life, you know? like most of the — because it's ego.

41:23— Well, yeah, it is because the thing is like people who really care about their families will not go about it that way. — They will not go about beating somebody over the head. It's like you beat me over the head for [ __ ] 10 years. Now let now let me do it for a little while. You know, it's that's not that not you know that kind of reciprocity have no has no space. And but but the thing is to your point Drew absolutely and I think that's the key that's missing.

41:48White magic, theurgic magic, the the magic of spiritual evolution is right an an interior process that has exterior manifestations. And you know, you start out with either good intentions or bad intentions. And then the eventuality if you stay on that road long enough is to know that you should not have any intentions. Because it's really true, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And I know plenty of people that are invested in goedetic magic for the for the well-being of other people. It's like,

42:21first of all, that's not your [ __ ] karma. You know, it's like you're playing the savior. You're loading things onto your [ __ ] ego. You're going to pay for it. You make this person, this poor person who who agreed in ignorance to to to buy your [ __ ] talisman, you know? Yeah. Okay. He made a lot of money. What do you think's going to happen? He doesn't know how to use the [ __ ] money. if he knew how to if he knew how to how to make money, you know, he wouldn't be in this conundrum.

42:47It's like when they get when people get a winning lottery ticket and like six years they're bankrupt and divorced, you know, it's like — [ __ ] mess — because what people are doing is like you're trying to clean up a workstation with filthy hands. So the the going and washing your hands first. Go and get yourself right. And people think that they'll read a book or two. They'll take a few college courses. This is a lifetimes endeavor the not a one time. It's not

43:20— I like that. I like that reincarnation plug there. — Yeah. The the Greeks had it too. They called it met them psychosis. It was they they believed in re there's reincarnation in the Bible. — That's Hades. That's Hades. That's Hades. That's samsara. Right. So, and that's been so, you know, it's like I said, even having these conversations, it's like people listen and they're like, "Okay, well, it's like, no, you gotta you have to you have to dig deep

43:45into what it is." Like, you yourself, you know, you have your background. You I know you're you're Greek, so it's like, hey, I'm Scottish, so that was a no-brainer for me to dive right into the Knights Templar history and all this stuff. And it's kind of, you know, whether it was Freemasonry, looking into that and architecture, all these things. And then eventually you'll kind of find the things that you most gel with or you're like, hey, I like this. And then by doing so much research in different

44:10things, you'll have such an appreciation for all culture. And I think that's like going back to the beginning of the conversation with all these um people we're mentioning from the uh 19th century. These are all welltraveled people, but you don't have to be wellraveled. you can pick up a book from a different writer, whether it's a a yogi or it's Plato, you can get this experience through, you know, the study of these different subject matters, and that is so important. Um,

44:39— well, for for people for people who aren't necessarily familiar with your work, Drew, I want I want why don't you tell us a little bit about what you do because you are a pretty welltraveled guy, and I mean what you do in terms of like what are you into? We know, right? You're you're a Freemason. You study Egyptology. You travel to these places. So, tell us about about I think that would be interesting for people who listen to the pod. — Um I Yeah, that's a that's a because I'm I

45:08love doing always since I was a kid love doing research obviously traveling to different sites. Um what I'm really into is spirituality and that whole journey, but not in like a hey, I want to get a group together and let's sit and I want to sell you on a subscription. I think that's the exact opposite of spirituality and and wealth or all these ideas that's you know the idea of um when these yogis and I I've been in India I and I love some of the old old writings of yogis that

45:41have good commentaries and stuff good food for thought but at the end of the day it's a commentary to the person right so you could just listen to commentaries your whole life whether it's somebody doing a commentary on the Bible but until you pick it up and read it yourself, it it doesn't really you're not really getting the source of the energy of the initial writing, right? And I know you're right there with me as far as studying your like, okay, I like Plato's work. I like, you know, I like

46:05all these these guys. So, for me, younger started studying all these different subjects. Started traveling very young. I have family in the UK. Um, first generation American. So, I was saying this the other night, it's like growing up British in America in a sense. It's like I didn't play American sports. we had football, you know, like kicking a soccer ball about. So going over to UK and then I had realized that my grandfather was in India in World War II with the British Navy and then I just

46:35started to have a fascination with India really young and then through my travels I just started to explore temples because I grew up in California. The closest thing we have to a temple are the missions here which are also temples and they're built on the principles of real temple building. So these are beautiful things that anybody in California whether you're in Los Angeles, San Diego, you can visit all these sites. Um but that is my main my main thing is to go and study these temples and really get a sense of number

47:09one why they were built the the the idea behind it without this idea of there being an alien responsible for it. I think that is that completely cuts you off from the journey of the discovery of why these were built because I know Ike you've been in Greece. Um when I went there, you know, you go to the Pantheon, I mean, sorry, Acropolis and you know, you you're you're seeing these sites and there's a purpose to them that people are not understanding rather than just a photo shoot. So, I got the temple bug. I

47:42started traveling Southeast Asia, travel all over Europe, into India, Middle East, Turkey, um yeah, Egypt. So, and just being able to share those those those kind of ideas and then writing about them, doing little articles. Um also really into just writing in general. Um got published for poetry work. And I kind of make it a little bit esoteric in a way where it's fun for the reader. And I do it in a sense where it's very important for me not to have some some sort of stronghold or gatekeeping on any subject matter. I

48:16like to leave it open to commentary. So if you can present something to someone where it allows them to have an opinion of it, I think that's a beautiful way to just to create dialogue. And um just to wrap it up, my biggest thing I'm into creating now is this idea of presence and staying present. And that was the one thing that all the temples when I sat back and I thought about all the temples I've been to, I was like, what do they really what does it feel like or what what is the main

48:45takeaway is the teaching of the hero's journey is really just you verse yourself is really what kind of started to resonate with me and um through my research um and going to these places and it's like I see the same story repeating and it really is that you against you and creating in harmony. Why is a temple built? and discovering these ancient manuscripts on you know the the Dharma temples of India and that just blew my that that like changed my life when I saw that and um studying that was

49:21pretty uh in in itself when you do the studying you'll have those awakenings or whatever you want to call them right you'll have those epiphies or it will lead you back to the source of whatever that is that is really truly within yourself and being honest That was pretty much the defining moment was when I I went temple and I was like in this temple before and it was thousands of miles away from this one. And I was like, what is this all to teach us is human beings. And what my commentary was on it was

49:56really the discovery is to create a temple within yourself, which is not just like, hey, I'm, you know, your look like this, it's that. It's like, no, no, no. All [ __ ] aside, it's create harmony with the people around you. And that was that's pretty much been my journey. And that's that's really what I'm about. And where that journey takes me is as long as I'm in the present state, that's pretty much where I'm at. I mean is mine you know as weird as that

50:20may sound but this is uh it's an ongoing process and it's a lot of different directions to meet a lot of interesting people like yourselves. So yeah — it's a long- winded Yeah. — I'm gonna throw out — I'm gonna throw out some — you some things and then ask you a question. So if I think about a lot of these ancient structures and ancient temples, things that come to my mind might be things like acoustics, um sound, brainwave states, uh they could be symbolic representations of

50:58principles. They could be energetic points. They could be having associations with sacred springs, potentially astronomically aligned landmarks. Um you had mentioned the experience that you had kind of arrived at um you know that sense of wanting to create this inner temple something along those lines. I I wonder what do you feel like after visiting a lot of these temples, what what was it that what were some of the indications for you that allowed you to arrive at that conclusion? — Well, I'll simplify this to a temple

51:43that everybody in the world knows, great pyramid of Giza. The way that it is designed when you go in it, it is like has three chambers. You have the rough chamber at the bottom, which is subterranean. It's all full of rubble. And then it starts to get a little bit polished up at the top when you visit it. You go in the middle chamber, that's called the queen's chamber. Um, that's a little bit finer. And then there's the king's chamber at the top. That's the one that has the

52:11granite sarcophagus in the center of it. And when you enter the the um the pyramid itself, I've obviously when you study Egypt, it will take you in a million different directions. And I've been to Egypt twice and it just leaves you with more questions. But when you walk in these structures, they all are built on the principles of awakening rather. It doesn't matter where you come from. It doesn't matter what you believe. You're going to have a feeling when you're in these spaces.

52:42They're aligned with certain planets that have certain energies whether you believe it or not. Okay? I could put anybody in the pyramid and they're going to have some sort of feeling. Um you go in it when you go into the king's chamber it's a small hole. You kind of got you got basically I'm tall so it's like you're basically kind of crawling into the room like the the act of crawling is the act of submitting your ego in a sense right. So then you're awakened into the room, but

53:12there's a there's a box there. Um you can possibly get into the box and do sound healing there and you will feel an energy that um is nothing short of physical magic is I guess the term is the uh you'll have this sense that exists like not just in your mind but your body. You'll feel a different way. And the pyramid when you're walking up the Grand Gallery, it's at so many different angles. It's always attacking your senses. So you're being taught to recognize your senses all throughout

53:48life. That's what I take it as, right? So to be aware of your senses and to be aware of the senses being tied to your emotional state, maintaining that balance of your emotions is really the purpose of these temples. I believe that's my commentary, you know, but each temple I've been in and the ones that are on the same alignments as some of these temples, whether like you said, sky being close to water, all temples are close to water. They all have to do with, you know, the you have water, you

54:19have air when you're going in the Great Pyramid, all the shafts when you're in it, it sounds like it's breathing. I remember telling my my my wife, I was like, "This temple is breathing. This is a living thing. In that moment, I immediately knew I was like, "This is the built. This is like ancient stonemasons or whoever built it. Built it with the intent to it's that they say it's an energy source." Like everybody talks about it being an energy source. And they're like, "Oh, for power." And

54:48they want to power [ __ ] light bulbs. I'm like, "No, it's to power yourself. is to teach you to power your own ability to create source which is through your emotions through being p being present all these kind of things tied into it and when you research all the uh the material that has been left by the Egyptians whether it was the Greeks that basically these sites and they figured out thing that I love to talk about the Greeks were so such beautiful um poet and they were so poetic and allegorories

55:27of the spirituality of ancient Egypt. Whereas if they went into the temple and they were basically writing what they were describing how they felt if you look right because none temples in Egypt ever had [ __ ] bodies in them bodies of these pharaohs are buried on the backside of the valley of the kings. So even the valley of the kings these tombs these are initiation places for deep spiritual um practices like you know resurrection ceremony I mean you look at you go into Egypt you know the story of

56:07Horus said Isis it's a story of resurrection everybody's it's kind of been convoluted in this idea it's like oh this is just you know this is their burial ritual like no this is living resurrection living resurrection is the transmutation of material to ritual in my mind right so you'll see that in all of these different temples you can go into a dharma temple um in India and same idea resurrection resurrection the resurrection of what is removing yourself from the material and

56:42turning it into ritual in a sense the present just being alive and enjoying what you have in front of you and balancing your emotions to navigate whatever [ __ ] comes your way, good, bad. Yeah, I think I think that's um there's a couple of really good points there going back. I I mean having been to you know a lot of temples particularly in the you know the that whole ancient Mediterranean area inclusive of Egypt and and North Africa but just the broader Mediterranean um you do get certain feelings. I will say the I've

57:25never felt anything in my life like when I was in uh Dendara the the Dendara temple. I mean I I've felt this kind of like thing my whole life that I couldn't put my finger on that I guess I would I would call it the religious impulse and it's very very much a feeling and it's a feeling that I have a very difficult time describing and it doesn't have to do with any hope of immortality or any hope of it's it's pos it's more like when you really want the Greeks would have called it aeros you

58:02you know, uh when you really like if you haven't seen your your wife or your significant other for a really long time and you it's just that longing that sense of like not having a sense of home because this person isn't here and um it's that to probably like you know certain several orders of magnitude and I've just felt that my whole life. It's a very it's you know and and that's just an analogy that I'm using to describe it. I can't even really put it into words. But when I

58:36stepped into Dendara and I was in there for about four or five minutes, I realized like this entire place, it was like walking into that feeling. It was if that feeling became a physical building and I walked into it and it was the walls were dripping with it. It was unbelievable how transported I was into that specific feeling again. And uh it was it's you know and that's interesting because it's it's technically you know it's it's middle kingdom Egypt. It's later it's Henistic Egypt. I mean there

59:06were there would have been you know henistic priests in there. But um but that was a powerful experience. — Yeah. Dendara is is so ornate and so beautiful and when you study the symbolism another thing it's like let's just bypass all the symbolism that doesn't mean anything. It's just an alien dropped that [ __ ] thing here. You know what I mean? That's more that's more of exactly what you're talking about. You're like you're talking about how like people think that that like

59:33they were trying to power light bulbs which is hilarious. It's like — I'd love to explain that symbol. — I mean I I I love that symbol. Um yeah, the dendor the dendora light bulb for anybody that doesn't obviously seen on Ancient Aliens — where you know they're talking about it being it's a it's a it's a lotus bowl for God's sakes. And when you look at the sorry that's a that's a that's a trigger for me you know as somebody that I it's like why are we discrediting an

1:00:01entire culture of people like they mean nothing. It's like there's still people that study ancient Egyptian magic in Egypt you know so the light bulb where it shows a guy and it looks like it's a landing you know they're they're they're there's wires. I'm like this is a lotus bulb. The lotus represents resurrection. It's rebirth. It's from mud. It grows in mud and it and it it grows in this beautiful thing. You're looking at the Jed and that is the one that looks like

1:00:30um that's the one that's shaped like looks like an everybody's like this is an electronic. This is a [ __ ] telephone pole, right? The Jed pillar. The Jed pillar — hat on top. — Yeah. Looks like a little hat. The Jed pillar is sitting underneath the lotus bowl. Pardon me. The Jed pillar representative of Osiris's backbone. And when you're Osiris's backbone basically is about the raising of Osiris from resurrection. So this is about spiritual enlightenment. That's it's not about hey yo we had some

1:01:07light here. We had this. I love the idea of imagining how they did it. It's like I don't really care. I'm like yeah this is very sophisticated. I understand that. You know, I've anybody that's been in the trades [ __ ] can look at that and be like, "Yo, that's a lot of [ __ ] work, you know?" So, exactly. I'm not Yeah, I'm not I'm not Yeah. — The And the the man the organization of manpower is the real miracle. — Harmony. Harmony, bro.

1:01:35— Because Because if you have like an architect who like really just had all these great ideas, I know exactly how it's going to work. He ain't going to do it. You need a you need a workforce that is — that's a beautiful story that is the beautiful story that has not been told right is about the stonemasons and I'm not saying I'm not attributing this to Freemasonry alone or anything else right I'm saying crafts ancient people's ability to overcome is been has been

1:02:06completely perverted by this idea of intervention human beings have existed x amount of years why are discrediting this entire uh timeline of history development and abilities. We're talking about how advanced we are. I'm like spiritually world used to run off ritual and harmony. That's why these temples were developed. They're developed to create harmony. Everything is built on the outside of the temple and goes out this way. You know, it's when you read Shastras, I mean, I sound like [ __ ]

1:02:41talk about this [ __ ] all the time, but it's Vasu Shastras in the Vadic texts. They're in the rig va. It specifically talks about temple design and about how every square is been um has a connected to it, a planetary and an emotion that is going to get out of you in the temple. So, segue to anybody interested. Yes, ancient Egypt. Wonderful. But problem is they didn't leave behind that information. So that's why it's more speculative with you know whether it was um you know laser cut technology or this

1:03:17that and that. That's why there's a battleground there. But if we look at if we look at my boys in India in ancient India it's like there is a manuscript on temple design. So you take that same temple design that is here in the Vic text and it trans it can you can take that same text and see that same temple somewhere else in the world. So that's a that's a like a a little hidden guide for people in a sense. You look at the new temple that was built in New Jersey, right? There's a huge one in New Jersey

1:03:48that was built Hindu temple and they're like we don't know how they did you know they're like you have people that have been handing down the material for thousands of years so it still exists. It's just you have to give a [ __ ] to look at it. — Yeah. And I mean craftsmen have to the average person has no idea what it means to be a master craftsman. The average person can hardly tie their [ __ ] shoes to be honest with you. I mean that's not the pjorative. It's just

1:04:14— of course — it's just it's just the truth where it's like until like kind of like what you were saying until you have the experience until you have the nosis of the experience you have you have no idea you have a handful of theories but you have no idea what it actually entails and that's that's the discouraging thing for me is that the an abundance of like overeducation in this country and in the west in general and this the coming full circle back to what we're talking about

1:04:40the installation of perceptual software has and I like to say this especially in front of all my very well- educated friends like we there are like several generations of people that have learned themselves stupid um because the issue is we have this this widespread p perception that ancient cultures were primitive look at how perfect that work is there's no way so now we're the arbiter we're the locust of what is true and what is possible rather than expanding our minds and enlarging our you know um our met

1:05:18modes of thinking to to embrace like yeah okay maybe we don't know how it how they did it but it's not impossible for somebody to achieve that level of perfection. You know we don't work with our hands regularly as people anymore. Most people had to have a garden had to have livestock. We don't have to do that anymore you know. So it's like we you you don't you don't know really how capable you can be in terms of you know what the Greeks would call technique a technical skill craft you know Zosimus

1:05:48would call it chairomata things made by hand and um and so that you really you see this that's why people that at least that's the clearest line I can see of how um we don't we have basic assumptions through which we filter all observation and all all uh succeeding information. So, we're constantly making these judgments based on on a priority perspective, meaning I'm not going to put any extra thought or experimentation into it. I'm just going to say that it didn't happen because it can't. And and

1:06:29that's what an a priority assumption is. And so you you know in a lot of ways it's like yeah we're being taught to to think that like it's not possible for people at that early of a date to build this stuff. So then what's the alternative? Well something helped them or you know they had some some some some uh you know aliens did it and things like that. But um the the main problem that we're going to have with that aside from all this intellectual speculation boils down to the spiritual problem

1:06:59because we are increasingly the more intellectual we become and the more reliant on technology we become, the less able we are to actually really truly understand deeply really understand um the the nature of spirituality until right around on the time of the enlightenment which was you know kind of like you were pointing out a very holistic very holistic especially at that early time it's spirituality was like everything's spiritual you know you can't put spirituality in a box you can't have a spirituality blog you know

1:07:37like the sun r the sun dying and being reborn every day is a spiritual fact and so you know we've we've chosen to go the route of you know bifrocating and and and like Sky said, I think the word he used is like we've kind of abandoned a holistic point of view um in favor of a very very technical one, a mentally technical uh viewpoint. And that's that's made us spiritually illiterate as as a we can't we're not able to detect the the the the presence of spiritual assumptions. So,

1:08:18we're like, "Okay, yeah, we don't know what spirituality means. It's a bunch of ugabooga woo woo bullshit." So, yeah, why did they build it? They're trying to make light bulbs. Well, who built it? The aliens. And then it's like, you listen to that, you're like, that is [ __ ] absurd. Everything that's coming out of your mouth is [ __ ] garbage. — I love that we're talking about spirituality. We're like so aggressive about it. Like, what the [ __ ]

1:08:40— You got You got You got to be, man. You got to be right. — You have to be. You have to be — with the money lenders. — No. No. Because it's like if you're not authentic to yourself, then who the [ __ ] are you being? You know what I mean? So, it's like I'm sitting up, you know, I'm sitting here guys ask me what I'm about. I'm like I'm about discovering self-discovery and discovering what this is all about, right? It's like I'm not

1:08:59believing the status quo anymore. You know, there's things I love. Here's a little weird idea. And I don't know if anybody's come out with this theory about where did these people go? The [ __ ] is the spaceship came and got them. Whatever. Check this out. If you believe in reincarnation, what if these generations just didn't come back after they died? Boom. Maybe they [ __ ] not in Samsara or Hades anymore. Maybe that generation of people created the perfect temple. And then guess what? They don't come

1:09:30back. So they meet, you know, in in, you know, in Dharma. And I'm not calling it Hinduism because Hinduism is incumbent I'm sorry pardon me. Um it is the entire continent of India that includes religions to the culture of India. Um so kind of just isolating Dharma and the will of Dharma. But the idea that you know the mocha from Samsara, the liberation, what if these people just found so much spirituality that you know that generation just did not reintegrate into Samsara in a weird ass I know it's

1:10:05totally [ __ ] weird, but it's also like I like thinking about things in a way where it's not like you know what the spaceship [ __ ] went here. Yo, is a spaceship just a distraction to keep us all dumb? Like I don't know anymore. It's it's it's a these things are are ways to keep us mired in materiality. — I love alien [ __ ] Yo, I'm the first — answer. — Huge alien fanboy, but it's like it's like, dude, people are talking about, you know, oh, Avatar is such a cool

1:10:35story. It's such a beautiful thing. I'm like, uh, the a ripped off story out of the Vadas, bro. Come on, man. Damn, dude. It's — doing there's only a handful of stories you could tell anyway, but yeah. — Yeah. It's like, okay, where are we going? Where are we going now? Take something out of we going to take a story out of the Bible and kind of just mess it around and do this that or you know, so like you said with um this repetition that we're continually creating where it's just like what is

1:11:05going on? — Yeah. — Yeah. I mean, you know, the the thing the thing is for me when I was in my 20s, I was very, you know, I went through a period in in young life where I was very uh aggressive and kind of, you know, the typical young man [ __ ] trying to find out what you're all about and what being a man is all about and, you know, what your hormones are doing. You know, I you know, I feel like I this is this is less and less the case in in in serious public dialogue, but I feel

1:11:37like, you know, women got a pass for hormonal stuff for a really long time, and we never talk about it with men because our hormonal cycle is 24 hours. So, it's literally every day we're on a cycle, you know? So, it's it's it's it's it seems nor it see it goes kind of at that point when it's not this long arch, it just seems like, oh, this is just the way you are. and just you know — just normal right yeah — and it is and it is but you got to also understand you know there's there's a

1:12:03hormonal component to that but you know aside from figuring all that stuff out I got really into eastern spirituality as a paliotative to get out of that and it made me very very zen but then the eventuality for that was were two things nihilism and self deification I deified myself instead of humbling myself and I called it you know like well I'm just very relaxed. I'm I'm peaceful now. Thank God. You know, I I was a raging alcoholic lunatic and now I'm just I I have I have my peace. But I don't think

1:12:37that that is I don't think that that's the spiritual end. That may be a means, but what we're doing is we're making the means the end now. And I truly believe because you see it. You see it in all serious scripture, whether that's official or unofficial. In times of spiritual crisis, there are certain people who need to be warriors. So aggression has has its place. it. But the whole thing is the key is that you know in the Golden Dawn we have the uh and you know it's in Freemasonry as well

1:13:13but specifically in the Golden Dawn when we take the sign of Osiris the left hand is always over the right because when you're in the cabalistic model um you know of this the the cabalistic tree of life superimposed on your body the left the left side is actually the side of mercy and the right side is the side of severity. And so when we when we cross, you know, the traditional image is is what the crook and the scourge, right? I am the shepherd and I am also the warrior. But it's ultimately the

1:13:52left. It's mercy that has to unleash severity. It's up always up to mercy to open that gate to severity which is a way of saying like everything has its place and and I think one of the best examples of that for a cultist is the the cabalistic tree of life because gabura is severity and nothing on the upright tree is averse. Nothing on the upright tree is averse. It's interesting um when you're describing the left side and the weaker side of man, right? It's left side and it's you look at all the statues in

1:14:28ancient Egypt and a lot of several other places, right? They they understood that they understood that the the divine bal you know people are talking about oh balance balance divine balance of what it's like what is the feminine where does that come into play? Is that the subduing of your ego perhaps? Is that why the statue is is moving on the left when it takes off? You should it's like to act in humility and act in that that what is the like you were saying Ike about you have to create there has to be

1:14:57you you're creating that idea of the higher source rather than hey I'm I'm the man bro I'm this life coach homie I got you like nothing to worry about doggy you know the new age way I don't know dude I'm from California man so we [ __ ] just let it rip — what's up doggy I got you dude — yo man on the one but it's like having that humility and what it creates around you. I say this to anybody. It doesn't matter what you believe in or anything. Start to work on that and right you your

1:15:26ego because ego you'll get a little bit off. You're like this person's getting a little bit more light where I want to get you know it's you know that taken off what else what else pardon me is a a sign of the the feminine source is service right in a lot of ways is giving service giving back. It's like I wrote something the other day and I was playing around with it. It's like, hey, you can either be a doormat or a doorway, you know? It's like you that's creating service, you

1:15:56know, but you're also not the guy, you're not the the [ __ ] door being like I'm a gatekeeper. It's like no, you got to let people in. You gota you have to have that eb and flow and you're going to these things. And I think it was you sharing about your 20s. I mean, [ __ ] man, I was a bouncer in my 20s. My face when I got to say that was a [ __ ] bouncer in my 20s at bar. So it's like hey through fear and learning how fear is such a powerful tool and I tell that to anybody I'm like fear

1:16:23experience is that is such a beautiful thing to to really start to analyze yourself and a guru a priest and this that they may not they're not going to they might give you an example of what their commentary on it you have to create your own commentary. So for me it's like hey I don't want to be around [ __ ] nonsensical [ __ ] I don't want to be around violence. I don't want to be around drugs. And that's just from my own personal viewpoint, right? Because you know that feeling that it makes you

1:16:53feel. It's like that I'm on edge all the time or I'm around fear, you know, like being in a bar. Am I going to get [ __ ] hit with a chair or a pull queue, you know, or stabbed? — So, it's, you know, you people need to look at spirituality in a more so and they don't need to look at anything. I take that back. It's a good for me anyway it's like the examination of self and and responsibility for your own journey in a sense with a higher humility and for why you're on the journey. Where is that

1:17:27coming from? Why? It's not like you just one day woke up and you like you know what I want to start thinking about these things deeper. It's like where does come from? Where does the feeling of that come from if it's not coming from something else? You know, it's interesting. — I love the atheism talks now, too, because I have friends that were I mean, we're similar age. Like, everybody was like, "Yo, dog." When I was a kid, everybody's like, "Yo, dog, God, it

1:17:51ain't real." — You know what I mean? So, it's like, you know, it's just funny. You gota It's like for me, it's like I like to simplify things because that's just it's um it's funny. And I hope I hope people can um find their own little pathways because that's the worst thing as practitioners and you you see things and you worked on yourself, right? It's like, hey, you you start to see the math of your own errors. You start to read math without numbers and yourself and

1:18:20the history of your own routine and the things that are that you're doing all these reps of, right? It's like, oh, I get oh, when I get drunk, I I fall down the stairs and I roll my [ __ ] ankle or whatever it is. You keep doing that. There's a math to that in a sense where it's like that's your own history. So the examination of your own history can give you a lot of self-development. You're like, "Oh, you know, when I cut that out, you know what? I'm I'm not as

1:18:43I'm not as unhappy anymore." So just there's ways to to do it, you know? So it's it's fun to share with you guys, though. It's uh obviously men talking about spirituality is super rare unless they're [ __ ] selling it. — Yeah. Yeah. — Just saying. We're trying to get laid. — Yeah. Hey. Yeah. It's like, "Hey, I got some DMT and a [ __ ] tree over here. You want to come hang out?" — That's that's the thing. I've I've

1:19:09always found that kind of like spirituality as paliotative, you know, that hyper commoditized like first of all, I want to point this out, you know, like all all spiritual all major spiritual teachers, the Buddha is no exception. None of them had any chill. Okay, that's what that is the defining characteristic of somebody who leaves friends, family, their possessions, their identity, and goes into the [ __ ] woods, you know, to like find you have to — you have no chill if if that's if if

1:19:41that's what you're what you're what you're endeavoring. So that's like, but I found like being in like the yoga circles and stuff like that and Long Island in the, you know, early 2000s and stuff because a lot of that stuff came out of New York City and and obviously in the on the uh the West Coast, too, but those were like like San Francisco and like New York were the two places where I started to see it really bleed out late 90s um early 2000s before it was just it cuz it exploded, right? I

1:20:08mean it's like almost exclusively you know like yoga pants are like the only thing that like a lot of people I know wear anymore. — That is that is a that is like a that is like a right of passage around here. This is — exactly — so it's like you need to go to Venyasa otherwise I don't you know I can't talk to you. You have to you have to have attended like four or five. I feel — I just noticed that like there was this really really disingenuous subculture that like pretended to be

1:20:36very calm and it was all about kind of this this credit, you know, this like cl this like like like spiritual peace clout. And then obviously these guys were just taking advantage of of of women who needed healing. And you know what? And it's not even just guys because I saw older women, — you know, and older men attempting to take advantage of young men who needed healing, you know. — Oh, it's a Yeah. When you're talking about yoga, it just brings me back to the main teachings of yoga all have to

1:21:06do with the mind, nothing to do with the body. So, it's like if it's only for exterior, it's like there is no there is no um there is no liberation to be found in it other than just hey, I want to look good. I want some abs and I want my butt to look nice in these yoga pants. And hey, if that's like the purpose, I know plenty of people that do yoga and wouldn't know where India was on a map. And that's totally cool. It's like, dude, I get it, you know? So, um, obviously looking the way I do and

1:21:37being, you know, as gone down that rabbit hole as much as I've kind of lived there now, I guess. [ __ ] It's it's it's interesting because it's also it's been a blessing where I live that's obviously very popular. So, it's it's nice if I can identify if I can help somebody with some some sort of like like I was saying, it's like how much do you want to influence anybody? I don't want to [ __ ] influence. I just want to be just positivity spirit of right

1:22:05you're just like hey what can I do what kind of harmony can you create around you but yeah the yoga scene got totally [ __ ] up totally [ __ ] up and they also have um god what else but even in India it's been you know that's not that's not isolating here I mean there's tons that are sitting when I watch a goo and this is I'm going to say this to anybody I'm gonna stand on a when I watch somebody giving any sort of speech from above somebody that's a [ __ ] that's no seeing if you're in

1:22:34Rome and you're seeing the priest stating down on you or whatever it is right for me anyway I'm like hey I get it but it's like where's the connection to source for the individual it's like is it a blockade or is it is this honest it's hard so being aware doing your own research and figuring out what works best for you in those teachings whatever it may be right because there's there's beautiful I wasn't raised Christian but there's beautiful things in all. I

1:23:00believe there's beautiful things in all religions, — but it's like you have to steady him. You can't just say that. You know, there might be like I don't really [ __ ] with Alistister Crowley. You know what I mean? I just that's a perfect example of somebody that corrupted so much things that had so much uh the initial purpose like we discussed earlier with some of these these uh some of these teachings and stuff how they get corrupted where men are taking it women or vice versa

1:23:26whatever. You know that's the black magic. That's the magic. It's likeing once you once you the power ofation and then it to corrupt. It's like I think we can all three of us speak on that of how how it's so easy to see you know. Yeah. I think you know it's if you boil it down it comes down to and this is why there's so much training in esoteric orders or there should be anyway in preliminary training consists of morality the same way it did in the platonic school right starts out with

1:24:04you know physical temperance and stuff like that then the next one is ethicos you know ethics um and then after that is is uh you know politicos the the civic duty that you now have being an upright ethical person. I mean, this is part of the the Neil Platonic Academy. So, this goes way way way way way back. And so, now when you go into something like Freemasonry, which I think everybody should have to go through in order to like get into other esoteric orders, you know, um because there is co-masonry for women, I think that

1:24:36that's something that should should be just my personal opinion. It should be prerequisite to joining something like the Golden Dawn because we're we we're not going to teach you that stuff because we hopefully you already have your ducks in a row. Um but that's not not always the case. So so morality is that because what happens is if and when power does come, the only thing separating black and white is you. And if you can't trust yourself, you're going to you're going to to to be

1:25:07manipulative. Because I I think the best way that I could play the best way that I could make a distinction between black and white magic is selfishness versus selflessness. Um and lots of people, right, the road to to hell is paved with good intentions. Um I don't have any specific intentions. I try not to have. Sometimes they pop up, right? But that's just part of the spiritual journey is like, okay, when am I you got to notice when you're passing something off to just another ego and then kind of nip that in the

1:25:44bud. But one of the things that the western mystery traditions, Allah, neoplatanism, the particularly as as manifested in the Golden Dawn system is to be led. Therefore, you don't have any intentions. You're just following. You're putting one foot in front of the other based on, you know, in the Golden Dawn system, we would call it, you know, you are, you have been raised and united with your higher divine genius. And that term genius comes specifically out of Thomas Taylor's translation of the

1:26:13Neoplatonic material. He didn't want to translate diamond as demon, so he translated it as genius. And so we get that straight out of the Neoplatonic material. And it's essentially the linking of the lower persona um to the transcendent aspect of of our spiritual onlogical chain which can act as a mediator between us and the ineffable deity and then you are to be led based on the prompings of that aspect of yourself. And the the interesting thing is that it doesn't usually the thing the way your life

1:26:50turns out and the things that you do and the ways that you are encouraged the the endeavors that you are encouraged to to sort of pursue they don't necessarily appear to be even remotely similar to what we might consider in the modern day as spiritual you know a lot of the times and that's not just my own experiences other other golden dawn adepty that I that I do not many of them but there that I do speak with, you know, who have attained way more of a connection to that than I have. Um, and yeah, it's

1:27:21kind of like, yeah, I, you know, you have all these ideas that you're going to be some sort of spiritual magician priest and it's basically it'll tell you like what job to take, — you know, and it's like I don't want to do this, you know, like why do I have to do this, but you just do it, you know? There's there's so there's so many available to people that are interested in you know whether even with your with the with just tarot right we just I just went to your

1:27:52presentation on tarot and you know things like that just like little small steps and see you know where these things into the things that we're drawn to as individually. It's all part of your art. The kind of music you listen to. Oh, I like this. I like that. What kind of paintings you like? I like this. I like I like to write. How do you like to write things are all part of our art as individuals? You'll find the group if you want to be if you want partake in it. um you know these different societies there's plenty

1:28:33of access now whereas if back in the day there was little to no so when you meet I know I speak on this as well is like when you meet older guys from some of these orders they don't talk about it unless you're from the order you know it's so old school and there's such a rever you know you can learn so much you know it's still it's still so much of that legacy like we're talking about talking about the yogis whether it's you know sages are, you know, mystics and guys that were teaching. It's there's so

1:29:04many different levels to everything rather than it just being evil. It's like it's when you look at it as a whole, it's like everybody's kind of chasing spirituality here, you know, outside of the black magic realm of what we're talking about. instead of it being the Illuminati this that I'm like there's plenty of people that have come out of orders and different societies have done some incredible things whether it was innovations in medicine innovations in just standards of living

1:29:34rights for people fighting uh educating themselves for human rights names we talked about earlier from um you know Bllokis um these people that were fighting for women right so it's like all this thision that it is evil is like, yo, I'm totally everybody that magic in any sort of form can be usedative. It doesn't matter where it's from. There's people that are magicians, I'm sure. You know, when you're watching the person on you, if it doesn't sound authentic or seems

1:30:06on too much script, it usually is. You know, it's like Yeah. — You know what's really funny? I'll I'll um I'll kind of like talk every once in a while about like you know the black lodges and things like that. that I mean Martina Deasquali even even spoke he tra he educated the he educated his his um you know El Cohen during his lifetime on like what how do we know who the black Rosie are you know like there you know and I'll talk about this in modern orders I kind of and people be like oh

1:30:42my god are you kidding me a conspiracy theorist get out of here now and I'm like listen you and I are standing here on a Saturday in robes and funny hats, meeting clandestinely for the purposes of accomplishing ritual. Now, how crazy would it be for people who did the same thing but just had different intentions? How how wild is that to to possibly imagine? Because the the whole thing is that like most people don't think that any of this [ __ ] exists, period. Yet, here I am, you know, here here we are. So now how much

1:31:20of a stretch is it to understand that like no there are there are people who are using this specifically for dark purposes which is just the accumulation of of wealth, power and uh you know the manifestation of a particular vision their particular vision of um of what paradise is. Ours is — I I love what you just said there. The manifestation Yeah. It's like they're of the emotion they're trying to get out of this subject. Yeah. For what purpose? It's like not everything's so

1:31:55complicated as everybody, you know, we get so distracted by the idea that everything's so complicated. It's like, hey, well, what about the like going back to the ancient builders, going back to all these things. It's if you if you discipline yourself in anything, you're going to get better at it. — You know, it's just having that integrity to just be a little bit more disciplined, be a little bit more patient. simple that we're all taught. The etmology of words, words have power,

1:32:20words have meaning. I love you. I hate you. All these things are so they convey such an essence to themselves, you know, and it's been kind of lost. So, yeah. No, it's it's an interesting — I've got a couple questions. Um, I want to ask one that's just kind of more of a speculative fun question and then I want I want to ask another one to get both your takes on. Um, but sorry if I cut you off or anything. Go feel free to say whatever you're going to say. Um, — no, you're good.

1:32:53— Okay, cool. Um, I'm curious just out of curiosity to hear your guys's thoughts on the Ark of the Covenant. And if you think that it was a real thing, if so, what was it? what was it really for? Uh like functionality, do you you know along with the biblical thing, is that like coherent in your vision or your view or Yeah. I don't know. I'm just curious like what you think about that. I know that there are people that have said things along the lines of the Ark of the Covenant being

1:33:25something like a, you know, powered storage device that it was stored in the pyramids, things like this. Um there's there's the tablets that held the uh uh commandments, things along these lines. Um so I'm just curious what you guys think about that. I'll ask you first, Drew. — Um that's a really fun one. I think the more you study different things, you kind of can come back to that. I would say it's the most popular idea of you know the most of so many different you know I could I could say the arc of

1:34:04the covenant is the atma linga right it's like the journey the atmalinga I associate it with liberation I don't associate it with physical — what's the aalinga — the atmalinga atmalinga is like the like like soul of Shiva right so the soul of Shiva is the liberation the liberation from what the liberation from the distraction if that makes obviously I talk in a you know I'm kind of just getting in the zone but I'm saying I I was like the arc to me and when I you know this discovery it's a

1:34:39distraction from it's like a I I always look at it as like of a a spiritual thing a physical thing and I it like oh in this place it was held here and it's like oh why was it held in like when I was describing the pyramid it's like why was it held there. Oh, is that because this is an enlightened thing you or the idea is the art just another name for a way of attaining liberation? Liberation meaning um a oneness with source is I can is what I alluded to. That's what I just in my own take that's I love tree.

1:35:16I love the story obviously with the Knights Templar and all that. And the more I was down that rabbit hole I'm like does this thing even exist? You know, because there were so many allegorories along the pathway where it was so much more spiritual than it was to me anyway. This is my commentary on it, right? I say you got to save your you know I don't say expert in anything. So it was so much more started to be like yo the arc is like the arc is like your that divinity that finding that

1:35:46divine that thing that works for you. Remember when we talked and I said the isha there's no wrong way. you know, you have that deity or that source that you find. Um, actually having faith, the simplicity of faith in something is super powerful. It doesn't matter what it is, but if you're willing to to go all in on something and really believe in it and have that confidence, that to me has always resonated as this idea of the ark or as the idea of the atma, of the lingum, right? It's, hey, this right

1:36:19here has to come here in a weird way. Virtual way. This is what happens. You go to a [ __ ] tonles. You just This happens. I mean, for me any This is where I'm coming from with it anyway. It's the arc is Yeah, I just I love the story. I I you know I'm not discrediting any any sort of biblical text anything like that but for me and where I'm at with my own personal beliefs and stuff that's what I associate it with in a weird way where I'm like it's just it's just this higher high of

1:36:58being like faith I really in something I know that's probably not I'm not conveying that completely what I'm feeling when I say it but that's kind of like my little take on it. It's like maybe it's just be present. — Love it. Yeah. No, I'm just I'm just super curious. So, what about you? What about you, Ike? Um so as a as an archaeological artifact um you know it appears to have taken a primary place in the spiritual technology of communication between the high priest

1:37:40and of of of God or Yahweh. Um it it was their connection to him, right? The ark of the covenant. Covenant means what? Contract, agreement. Um and not only inside it were the um the tablets, but also the the pot the pot of mana um which was this kind of mysterious substance which uh the Hebrew people were enabled. they they could digest it and eat it and it kept them alive in their wanderings throughout the wilderness. Another thing had to move around a lot because the ark was, you know, uh they were wandering in the

1:38:23desert. And so they, you know, uh um they get the order to construct it from God. And they put, you know, the the the the tablets of the divine law in there. They have the pots of mana which give them sustenance in their wanderings. And it's got these, you know, sort of things traditionally that they're they're carrying it by. And it was literally their telephone to God because um now now I think I I personally happen to think that that you know more along Drew's lines where it's this is a this is a potent

1:39:01spiritual al uh uh um uh sort of symbol here. This whole thing is is is a codified somewhat veiled uh system of of spirituality that kind of goes back to what I was talking about earlier about the communion with the diamond. And it has parallels to to alchemy. Um right because God when God says okay so you've got the ark of the covenant and it's it has its place in the tabernacle of the wilderness. that's kind of like this makeshift temple and they don't have a real temple until you know uh the

1:39:37one gets built. I think it's started under David and finished under Solomon. Um and then they then they have the Holy of Holies. It's not moving anymore. So, but but they had the tabernacle in the wilderness. The tabernacle in the wilderness was you walk up first. The high priest is the only person who could go back into the Holy of Holies. You walk up, you make an a a um a burnt offering. Then when he's done giving the burnt offering, he goes around to the labor of purification. It was made of brass,

1:40:08washed himself. Then and only then was he able to penetrate into the altar of incense inside the actual and then that in there is the holy of holies. Now the holy of holies is where the ark of the covenant was kept. And now in in in wrapping our heads around what you know what God says about how it is to be constructed gives us a little bit of right of of the the symbolic purposes or like whatever this was meant to communicate on a spiritual level and I'll kind of go through it everything that I just said kind of the

1:40:45spiritual symbolism behind it but very importantly um it was a process now in esoteric interpretations particularly by way of you know occultism. The first place that the high priest went was the the the altar of burnt offering. Okay? And he sacrificed animals there. Why did he do that first? Um because it was and now this is you know a cult exesus but the tradition states that this was the offering up of the animal nature of the self that is interested primarily with the natural world and natural things.

1:41:25The second part once you have divested yourself of those things next comes the purification and we understand brass to be associated have certain planetary correspondences for different people at different times. Then you are to wash and to be made pure to be made holy. Um and then from there uh incense is important because incense especially to the Hebrews but just generally the use for incense was twofold. Not just to make the place smell better, but because your prayers were thought to ascend with the incense.

1:42:01And so then that third step is prayer, devout prayer. And then he would pass into the holy of holies. Um or the the altar of incense was actually in the holy of holies and it was made of gold. And uh so the instructions that they get is make what's called he calls the mercy seat. The mercy seat is is like on top of the ark. It's like the on top of the lid. And he says you're going to make it, you know, given certain dimensions, but it has to be pure gold, right? So now we should be thinking

1:42:34alchemically. All zasimus of panopoulos and and all of that other stuff. Pure gold. And then on either side of the mercy seat, you will make two carob of gold. Okay? Reaching upward. uh in the esoteric exogesis of that is the masculine power and the feminine power, right? And being on either sides of that that mercy seat. And then the final thing that that God kind of delivers is like this is where I'm going to talk to you. Right at the place between the two carob, — right above the golden mercy seat. This

1:43:17is where I will communicate with you. And that has parallels to the entire initiatic process of coming to know your higher divine genius. You know, that is what's going to talk to you. It's the process of how you get your higher divine genius to communicate with you as God's intermediary because God cannot talk. Right? God, if God is the brain of creation, the brain doesn't speak. It makes the mind speak. The brain doesn't run. It makes the legs run. You know, it gives the commands

1:43:51because because the one the the ineffable source of all um it it you know, it's the same thing. He also tells and this is my own personal interpretation. I always viewed Aaron, Moses's brother, as like the exoteric, like the if we're talking about like the spiritual versus the persona, I always viewed Moses as like the spiritual center of the self. Whereas Aaron, his brother, were like the outward face. And you know what God tells Moses about Aaron, he can never come in here without

1:44:22dying. And it's the same process. You cannot look upon the face of God and live. You must have an intermediary. The persona cannot enter into spiritual ventures. So there's powerful powerful analogies throughout the Bible, particularly in Exodus and Genesis. if and there's this really cool I got to get you the author, but there's this really good book on um on the Cabala of Exodus and and Genesis and I I'll get that to you. But this is this is straight out of the Western initiatic mystery traditions. This whole

1:44:55Exesus here. — Damn, that was — beautifully said. — I'm glad I asked. — All right, I got one more for both of you. uh cuz I he had mentioned earlier this exotification of spirituality kind of coming from Bllovatzky with these eastern movements. Do you view that as something that has been beneficial like if you look at the effects that it has had or the way she has communicated things in her writings? Um, do you find her style and her communication um, of benefit? Would

1:45:40you have done things differently? Do you think it's uh, and maybe elaborate a little bit about what you mean by exotification, too? — Well, I mean, I have my own criticisms, but I mean, let's face it, I'm I'm nobody compared to like a Helena Bllovadsky. She changed the world. Um, and she worked hard. I mean, both her books were like over 500 pages, you know, each. So, she put in a lot of work. She also had one of those personalities, you know, really was a cult of personality. When she died, it

1:46:12went on a completely different direction with Annie Bessant and um and Charles Webster leader, but uh I think it needed to happen to bring us back to an appreciation. I I don't I feel like there was no way because of like what what the the Catholic Church did, what the Vatican did to essentially they buried all this stuff for so long and made it anathema and made it, you know, heresy for so long that it created within our it stripped our p perceptual filters of being able to understand what

1:46:53was in those writings. So even if we had, you know, the the the volumes that the that the church that the Vatican keeps in its archives or, you know, or um even if you even if you read the Apocrypha, you couldn't understand it from a western perspective. It had been too altered. It had been too exoterified and you know, aspects of it and it was just too deep. you know, you would need to be like you need to have the mind of like a Thomas Aquinus to be able to understand this stuff, you know, years

1:47:28ago, I think. And I think that, and I'm talking about lay people here, you know, guys like us, but I think that Eastern spirituality opened us up to abstract thinking that was heavily discouraged by the Catholic Church. They were terrified of people's ability to think in in abstract terms now. This is why we've gone wrong with Plato for [ __ ] hundreds of years. People are reading these things as rational discourses. They're absurd. They're absurd. You read there's not an ounce of rationality in

1:48:04the actual discussion because he was trying to get to the point. You know what I'm saying? He's trying the tilos of the d. This dialogue is about like right first civiatis that'll go perfectly with what we're talking about. It's about self-nowledge. I'm not talking about self-nowledge. What's your favorite colors? What part of your back hurts? You know, uh you know, yeah, sometimes I'm a little bit of an [ __ ] Not that kind of self-nowledge. Self-nowledge of making the cosmic

1:48:28apology and saying, "Oh my god, I have only been pretending to know any everything that I have claimed to know." You know, so that that's the tilos of the dialogue. Never mind the fact that it's written from the perspective where Socrates is talking about how his diamond he's like he's delivering this thing to Alcibiottis who he loves and he's saying like listen I waited years to tell you about this because my diamond has told me don't tell him about this but now my diamond tells me that we

1:48:57can have this conversation. So he's talking about that kind of communication that we that that we're exemplifying here. But the document itself is codified so as to to to represent or to symbolize Socrates as Alibi's diamond. So the tract itself shows you how the diamond communicates with you. So there's that codification and it's all about self-nowledge. Now, if you're not ready to understand that and you go about reading this document, you're gonna be like, "This is [ __ ] crazy. I

1:49:28don't know why I'm wasting my time." And we didn't we couldn't do that. We we were having trouble doing that. And I think that, you know, for all her faults and um for all the really I guess damage that has been done to real true spiritual, although you can never really completely damage it because it's there when you're ready to understand it, but we've let's face it, you know, like I we've we've we've paraded our our our secrets in the mysteries through the

1:50:01streets, you know, and and it's some good has happened and some bad and there's a lot of neutral in there. But but regardless of all that stuff, I mean, it really it brought us back to a tradition that you needed to be able to think poetically and abstractly. Now, as to Drew's point earlier, we're being stripped more and more of the ability to admit the existence or the possibility of an underlying spiritual reason for anything, whether that's the pyramids or rituals or yoga, right? um I don't need

1:50:33Raji yoga. This is fine. I'm look look how far I can get my leg over my head. I'm great. I'm healthy. You know, like it's like but I don't need Raja yoga. So um some of that happened, but uh I think that was the the good thing. And also more importantly, she created temporary autonom autonomous zones much in the way of a Masonic lodge where we're all coming in on equal footing, men and women, and we're all this is a um a curated space, a forum for us to be able to have these dialogues outside or away

1:51:05from the opinions of the profane. and she really really created a a beautiful worldwide network of that for men and women. There was a lot of [ __ ] you know, like that got pumped and filtered, but that's any spiritual messenger is always going to at least a little bit taint the message coming through because it has to come through their their filter, you know? So, it's always no matter who you are, it's always going to be tainted a little bit. Um, but other than that, yeah, I mean, we could go on

1:51:38for hours. I'm interested to hear what Drew thinks. — Absolutely. — What do you think, Drew? I think I mean that's a to follow up with what Ike was just saying is it's so in lock step with you know anybody for all the people want to discredit you know her work or where she took it from blah blah blah blah blah I get it I get it I get it you know and I know Ike's heard that and we've all heard it but like you know as an artist myself it's like yeah you're gonna there's going to

1:52:13be things that influence you and you gota But you have to find a way to create your own commentary on it. You know, there has to be that. But I think, you know, I know she created like hundreds of lodges, you know, for her society all over the world. I the the unification that she was able to create with people and the things that came out of it are super positive in a lot of ways. like the the direction. I know we've we've talked so much about magic, black magic, white magic, all these

1:52:43things, but do you look at creating a space where there is equality and creating harmony? And I think the maybe the intention will create harmony out of that. There could be some bad seeds. I get all that. That's just part of the experience, right? That's the human story is that's it's like you have to navigate those experiences. And I think through her work uh she shared a lot of things that were completely foreign to everybody else and the things for granted today with our access to

1:53:17information. We you could any PDF so many different books you can read stuff but you know God that would have been you know 140 years ago at this point somewhere around there right all this was kind of really blossoming there was no access so for somebody to for you know we look at society and we talk about men and women and how women this I'm like this woman put it all out there so to me I look at it as like [ __ ] you had a lot of confidence and there's something to take away from that.

1:53:48There's some sort of spirit that comes with confidence where you're like pay attention to that, right? So read work and that and thinking about where women were at in society at that point and kind of some of those struggles and understanding that as best as I can from where I'm at in history is pretty remarkable and to be able to share that was you know like it or love it that's it takes a lot of takes a lot of strength. It takes the first step there's no going back after the there is

1:54:26this is a segway but with when I think about the more spiritual you become person or you want to call it more aware you are of where you're at in that moment in time you'll watch something you start to examine when you read somebody's work you're like what what is going on in their head it's like yeah I like the work but what was what is behind the artist who is the artist so it's very hard for artists to describe themselves, right? So, when you read Beladsky's work, there's a lot of art in it.

1:54:57There's a lot of it's it's hard. It's a hard read. Ice Unveiled is a hard read for most people. I wouldn't, you know, it's going to take time. It's going to take some discipline. If you're interested in it, I'm not pushing anybody's work. That's not what I'm here to do. Um, I'm here to space where people think the way they want to about these kind of things. Um, but it's a yeah, I just I look at the artist when I read work, whether it's Plato, whether

1:55:28it's um some of the some of the stuff I'm really into. It's like I look at the emotion that's behind it, you know, there's something to it that has that that thing, you know, but back to the first step. I I remember what I was going to say. Um, I always think about the first step of a journey. There's nothing actually beyond the first step of a journey. There is nothing beyond it because you've made the commitment on a journey to begin with. Doesn't matter where it leads to made a

1:55:55commitment to yourself to do something. So when I read somebody's work like that, I'm like was committed to that journey. And it was like [ __ ] I'm all out. And I watch Ike and the stuff that you guys are both doing and I'm kind of doing because I'm doing research and doing presentations. It's like when you finally put yourself out there and take that first step, whether it's, you know, that left foot, right, want to call it, that weak side, you're a little bit scared, but there's something about it

1:56:23that once you take that step, it doesn't [ __ ] matter anymore, right? So, we can sit here and say whatever because it's like, hey, the confidence to [ __ ] take that step to pick up a microphone and say this or she had the confidence to sit down and write it and publish it out into the world, you know? So there's some power to that regardless. That's my little take. — Yeah, I think I I think there's a lot a lot of good points. I think there's a lot of she did a lot of good stuff.

1:56:50Again, you know, there's some sort of to me I really think there was a spiritual impetus at Tilos for for the work that she did. But, you know, I mean, in terms of criticisms, a lot can be said in terms of uh well, one thing that I want to point out is that Blovadski admitted, and this isn't a criticism, it's just something I think that's interesting. Lavatzki admitted, you know, the fact of magic you sidis and stuff like that from uh from the Vadic tradition, but she was she basically said, you know, don't even try

1:57:26it. Like unless you're like a an ascended master, like don't even don't unless you're an adept. Don't even try it. And I mean, I'm not talking about like today's standards of of adept because that that's a buzzword now. That's like a bracket term that people throw around. Back then it was not, you know. Um but uh she didn't think that you should practice magic and she also relocated as I was saying you know the source of spiritual wisdom on this planet to the

1:57:54east although she talks about the neoplatanists. Um and again you know here's the thing right a lot of the neoplatonic stuff resulted from a you know henistic discourse with Asiatic philosophies. They called Alexandria the city where east met west. And even Platinus, the the neoplatonist, the guy who literally innovated Platonic philosophy to the point where they said, "Okay, this is something new now." Um, you know, highly, highly, highly eastern, you know, no ritual. It's all contemplative,

1:58:29you know, that kind of like Drew is saying, there's a bit of committing to to to the presence of the moment. And you know he he took much more of an aesthetic type of um but his philosophy is is it resembles Buddhism and a lot of the early uh vict so so there's there is that you know ultimately is it is one planet and it is one tradition with many manifestations but my point in all this is saying that she effectively created of um by dominating you know the spiritual discourse not only in the the west but in the east

1:59:08they had their headquarters one of their headquarters were in Adyar India. Um so what she did really was she she kind of set the stage for guys like Mathers and Wescott to be like we want to talk about magic and we want to talk about our western traditions. This is great. We're going to use all this. I mean, if you don't have a firm handle on theosophical the theosophical lexicon, you're not going to understand the flying roles of the inner order of the golden dawn. They were using that language, you know, but

1:59:41they applied it to the study of um of Western esotericism and and and magic, etc. So, uh that's that's kind of a cool thing. And then of course, you know, Sky, I've I've said it here a few times, it's an unfortunate consequence that she was very vocal about her ascended masters teaching and initiating and training her telepathically. Um because now it that finds its, you know, inverted correlation to uh modern days like spirit guides and everybody thinking like you can be completely

2:00:14untrained if I just burn a little sage and meditate four times. Uh, I now have spirit guides that I'm that I'm in communion with. — Drew, I think you're muted. — Yeah, sorry. My bad. I said, get your sage on. — Get your sage on, family. — Yeah, — dude. Sage is Sage has turned into like a million-dollar market, man. Out here. And I'm not knocking sage. But — I'm all about the copal personally. — What's up? No, you got to do the sage.

2:00:42You got to do your polyanto, right? — Oh, yeah. Yeah. Polyanto is the big one. Um, — smells good. Smells good. — Before we jump off, I want to ask you, Drew, a little bit more about what you're kind of currently working on. And maybe you can give, you know, little some little tidbits of interest. — So, I know when you asked me earlier, I was like just so in the, you know, we're talking about spirituality, so you go down that rabbit hole. Um, right now I'm

2:01:11working on a a big artic that I will share with you guys off of this call that I'm very excited about and it's going to be a real new direction for me and my family which I'm excited about. I'm still going to be actively doing the travel stuff. Um, I'm planning I'm pl I'm probably the I'll be in Turkey at the end of summer visiting some sites there and then continuing projects in India and then going to be back in Egypt hopefully for Christmas is kind of the the plan. Um, I'm working on a book

2:01:45currently. So has been ongoing for quite a while as Ike I know is putting one out and I put a poetry book last year or the year before and you know you're sending them to the editors and all that. It's like you want to make sure it's as authentic to your own stuff as possible and it's process. But I'm just enjoying that and focusing on being a father. And that's also um in a crazy way riding up so much more because now it's like you're watching the influence of you

2:02:18know the purity of a child and their existence and that just spins everything. You're like what was I thinking about years ago? Those kind of things. So, um, working on just putting more art out into the world and just continuing writing, photography, that kind of stuff. And, um, travel company. — Yeah. What's up? — Are you able to give any teasers about the book or do you want to keep it on the DL for now or — the book? Man, I go I I've it's something that is

2:02:50so as Ike obviously you're putting out a piece and it's like okay once it's finished it's like here it is you know that's kind of where I'm at. Um but it's something is very spiritual in context which is a bit different because my research over the last couple years and doing lectures for different organizations has been very like temple based. I've some spirituality um exploring that creating dialogue where spirituality conversations can exist in and outside of organizations is

2:03:20super important to me. Like our conversation tonight, we're not part of any organization here. So creating that dialogue has kind of become more of my external art that I'm sharing in a sense. So that's kind of what the book is going to be. It's going to be kind of trippy, but I'm excited to to just kind of see where it goes. And um to kind of know, like I said, I know I you know, we're all it's it's good to be delicate in your doings, if that makes sense, the intentions and all

2:03:55these things. We're, you know, it's kind of like I said about living in the moment, being present. The book's going to about presence and um that sort of that sort of realm just kind of some food for thought you know I think people are you notice people are kind of towards you know the ones people that are more into exploring different things and different writing and hope to be able to share it with whoever is interested. So there'll be more information on that. And then Ascension Excursions, my travel

2:04:28company. I'm gonna be doing some stuff, some groups, getting a lot of um a lot of people asking me about taking trips India with me and stuff, which I'd love to do, but because of stuff I'm into, it's like I want to show you how to invoke a temple in a way where you're you as a as a person can go and just have an experience. And not about teaching them how to do it. It's about teaching them to just present. Not not teaching. It's more so like, hey, you don't you don't need any of these things. Just

2:05:01go and explore this and let it let it explore you and see what the feedback is because you get so much more out of um watching somebody else's experience. I think that the older I get and especially with my son now, it's like I get to watch his experience in all these places. So being able to share that with other people, like-minded people is a lot of fun. So, there'll be more adventures in the future and just yeah, that's where I'm at. Thank you. — Beautiful. — Thanks for coming on, man. It's a great

2:05:31conversation. Um, — you guys are you guys are the best, man. — Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is a great I feel like this is a great group. Um, a great dynamic and, you know, um, I'd be be happy to talk with you again in the future as I'm sure Sky will be. — Definitely have to do another one. This is awesome. — I I I think we covered so much stuff where it's actually I'm like just it was a lot of fun and you know you guys, you know, last time we met just seeing where

2:06:02you know, the work that you both are doing individually and taking that first step and being able to be a part of just, you know, watching you guys' experience and likewise, you know, it's it's cool to be able to create dialogue with other men about things that are off limits to so many others. So, I appreciate you guys and I appreciate your friendship. — Appreciate you too, brother. — Appreciate. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. — Well, do you have any last words, Ike,

2:06:26before we sign out? — Uh, no. — All right. A man of few words. That's sarcasm. But, um, all right. Well, appreciate you both. This was awesome. Uh, definitely we'll have to do another one. And, uh, yeah, until next time. Yeah, guys. All right. Later. Good night. — Good night.