Episode 12Length 1 hr 9 min
Hosted by Sky Mathis and Ike Baker
26 chaptersFull transcriptAudio and video
Show notes
Sky Mathis and Ike Baker open with a practical—but foundational—topic for the modern magician: purification and cleansing. Ike frames purification as not just "nice to have," but a required prerequisite for magic and especially initiation—and something that never truly ends. It becomes a repeated method of spiritual hygiene: you purify, consecrate, and then you do it again, deepening over time.
In a ritual context, purification is described as a threshold-act: it separates the operator from the day's residue (stress, appetite, distractions, "minute-to-minute personality") and brings magical consciousness to the forefront. Ike points to the Golden Dawn's traditional recommendation of a ritual bath (or shower), emphasizing that symbolism isn't decorative—it actively shapes the psyche and the state needed for work.
The discussion then moves into the classic esoteric formula of twofold purification: water and fire. Water washes, refreshes, and clears; fire refines, elevates, and transforms—sometimes water comes first, sometimes fire, depending on the operation and what's being "sacrificed" or outgrown. Ike anchors this with examples from temple symbolism (washing, burnt offerings as the sacrifice of animal nature) and ancient Greek/Homeric sacrificial logic (burnt offerings and scent as an offering "language").
From there, they explore incense in a grounded way. Ike says he's not automatically sold on the simplistic "burn plant → spirits flee" idea, but he takes seriously the testimony of practiced grimoire magicians (he mentions Stephen Skinner) that spirits respond to smell, and that incense plays an operational role—not just an aesthetic one. He also notes that "incense" historically wasn't modern sticks, but smoldered herbs/resins used as purifiers of air and atmosphere.
The conversation expands into older occult physics: mesmerism/theosophy-style ideas of etheric charge—cold water as a "de-charger," charged water as a therapeutic medium—then circles back to practical ritual continuity: Catholic and Orthodox rites that cense and asperge (fire + water) show that purification remains embedded in mainstream ritual religion. Ike emphasizes purification is often multi-layered: psychological, etheric, and astral, and he explicitly distinguishes etheric vs astral as not the same thing.
He calls this a threefold purification when opening a true temple space. They then pivot into soap-making as a living metaphor: lye, water, and fat undergo saponification—an "alchemical" transformation into something new—mirroring how purification rituals can reshape the operator. That leads into the Golden Dawn's paired formula: purify by water, consecrate by fire.
Consecration is described as dedication—making a space or substance "for holy use." Sky asks about holy water and sources (tap vs spring). Ike answers that source matters less than the rite: you first "exorcise" the water (removing unwanted influences rather than assuming literal demons), then consecrate it—often through Trinitarian language and laying on of hands, understood as a transfer of subtle charge.
Ike adds personal context: he regularly consecrates water/incense and speaks from experience as a deacon in a Gnostic tradition, emphasizing that purity of the operator matters; otherwise you risk transmitting your own disorder into the work (he uses Reiki as an example of why discernment matters). A key critique emerges: many people engage esotericism as secular escapist cosplay—suspending disbelief without doing the purificatory work, then attempting intense operations or energy work without asking what's actually moving through them.
Ike argues everything must be purified because, ultimately, everything is meant to be spiritualized. Sky asks about the limits of consecration (a jar vs a river; potency and dissipation). Ike replies: the limit is "the limits of thy strength."
Consecratory capacity scales like training—through purification, discipline, and development of the "mundane" magical powers: attention, will, imagination, focus. He reframes "magical powers" away from fantasy into human faculties refined by practice. This opens a thread on saints as magicians—miracles as the fruit of restraint, dedication, and disciplined life—and the classic maxim: nothing is impossible, but nothing is free; power requires price.
From the show notes published with the podcast feed.
Chapters and transcript
26 chapters across 1 hr 9 min, with the full transcript beneath them. Choose a time to play from there. Open a chapter to read what is said in it.
0:00Right. Welcome to another episode of the Atherica podcast. Podcast for the modern philosopher magician. I'm Sky Matthysse joined with Ike Baker. How you doing, Ike? — Very good, man. I'm happy to be here with you tonight. — Me as well. I'm excited. Um, we're going to discuss a little bit of esoteric symbolism, some of some kind of Golden Dawn insights, uh, then potentially get into some guy named Cornelius Sria. Apparently, he knew a thing or two about magic. Um, but
0:41yeah, so I guess, uh, you know, just to open it up, uh, I also there's a couple other things I want to touch on that I didn't mention, but I'll just ask you in this question. Um, broadly speaking, I guess it doesn't necessarily need to be in regards to like any particular tradition, but I would assume that there's a lot of crossover between many traditions. Uh, I wanted to talk a little bit about like proper purification and cleansing practices. That's something that is kind of
1:08interesting to me. Uh, maybe it could be like spiritual mental work, could be burning sage, maybe some common herbs used uh in rituals. So yeah, maybe you could first elaborate on the purpose or the importance of cleansing whether it be you know your space your soul uh as within so without and then maybe talk a little bit about different methods uh practices historical tried and trueue you know revered uh accutria is that the word um — yeah sure I mean I would I guess I would say implements but
1:42— implements yeah any of that — okay um So I guess I'll start with what? Purification first. — Yeah, sure. — So that's obviously a prerequisite. Sinon means you cannot do without um of all types of uh magic and particularly initiation. Um this I mean this could be this question alone could be its own episode. uh it's of central importance and it's one of the first things that you learn to do because it's one of the first things that you that you have to do. It's one
2:21of the first things that has to happen to you. Um and uh particularly in in initiatic lineages and it never really ends. You just keep you know you keep it becomes a method of working you know. Um so purification is it serves several purposes. Let's put it in a ritual context. The ritual context is that a it it does separate you know it's it it is one step in a series of steps that isolates your magical consciousness and brings that to the four and kind of delineates you know the casting off of the day's cares and
3:13the you know the mundane day-to-day minute-to-minute personality that's thinking about food and sex and you know whatever petty grievances and things that you don't want to do. So, obviously practiced ritualists have less of an issue casting that off depending on the day, but um there are also several there there it's it's part of this whole kind of uh uh pre-roll to your ritual. You know, you're getting changed. Uh one of the first things that um that you do is uh you can do it's advised that you do
3:52particularly in the golden dawn the hermetic order the golden dawn system you take a ritual bath um that can take many forms I do not get in a bath I shower because it's it's it's too time consuming to draw a bath but um the symbolism is there and symbolism is extremely powerful it can influence your states of mind obviously very obviously not that even that it can it does it's just to what degree and in what direction does it influence it um and I think that that's a huge thing
4:31with something like sage you know the I'm not sold on this idea that I'm burning a plant and spirits are fleeing you know I mean I know I know that incense well at least from the perspective of Dr. Steven Skinner, right, who's one of the most accomplished and practiced, you know, not only occult academics but grimoir magicians that that are alive today. Um, he says that this, you know, incense is key. They they they they don't like the spirits when being called do not like the smell of people.
5:08— And is that applicable to both benevolent and benevolent spirits? Um, not in my experience. Um, but I don't know if he'd have something different to say. I think I think he may have had something different to say when we had I had him on the podcast several months ago. Um, but, you know, that's his experience. And I'm not I am not somebody who says, "Well, that's that's his truth." I'm I'm sure I'm sure there's a there's an objective component to that. Um, and one
5:42of the things that's very interesting too is that because you don't purification can take place in two in one of two ways or typically both in the Golden Dawn. Water and fire. Fire is purificatory. That's the greater purifica purifying agent. That's you can't just expose things to fire immediately. They have to be gradually gradually kind of purified. And so you begin with water and then you you you go on to to fire in most cases. Again, nothing here is a rule that is set in
6:16stone. There's just protocols that that have a certain effect based on their sequence. Um for instance, you know, uh um there's certain ritual degrees and work that that you do where fire is the first um thing to come in and and purify. And in a lot of cases though, we're talking about the sacrificing of animal natures. For instance, uh when it is said that the high priest in the the tabernacle or the temple of Solomon as well in in the Hebraic tradition when they approached the holy of holies, they
7:00first offered burnt sacrifice and and this was to symbolize, you know, according to esoteric tradition, the the casting off or or the sacrifice of their animal passions, their desires, and then they washed in the labor of the brass labor of purification. So, there's always a two-fold purification really in magic. Fire and water. Water usually comes first. Some in in some cases, fire will come first. uh a lot of this, you know, something that's interesting too is that if you read the ancient Greek
7:35texts, right, when they were when they were um wrapping animal bones in in fat, you know, that was supposedly the choicest cut was the fatty parts and they would wrap the fat in the bones of an animal carcass. And that is what they in Home tradition um that is what they offered up to the gods, specifically Zeus. And it was because they delighted in that smell. They loved the smell of the burnt fat um and and the bone. And that was uh so that's another interesting thing if we're talking about like incense.
8:10— Yeah. So I was going to say so they I guess when you're talking about these this historical references and whatnot um offering this form of sacrifice in the form of burning to the gods or the spirits. Um, so it is it's like that's a preferable um that's something preferable that they that is choice for the spirits but not the incense so much. That's well well here's the thing here's the thing that that was that was for Zeus in the homeic tradition they did that uh for the gods right um whereas
8:52various incense was offered to to spirits you got to also you got to realize like we're not talking incense like we have incense now you know it was you know some kind of smolder of of of of dried or even fresh herbs depending on on the ritual preparation and what what it called for. But um they didn't have incense sticks, you know. Um but there were a lot of things that had to do with purification back then. Incense was a way of purifying the air to them. Fire was a way of purifying material
Close chapter 59:28from its dross. water was a way of, you know, obviously washing away the grime and the dirt and kind of, you know, it's refreshing. You get into like 17, 1800s, you know, messmeriism and theosophical traditions, they talk about things having an etheric charge. Cold water is the fastest way to decharge something of its etheric uh of its you run it under cold water and and it'll it'll decharge something that has built up etheric energy like static electricity. On the other hand, you know, uh Mesmer and his students
10:07could they would etherically charge a full glass of water and have the patient drink it. But aside from those minor digressions just out of interest and them popping up into my mind, this is the way my brain works. you know, I just start and it's like I'm going down a hallway and things just jump out of doors at me. But uh um but then um oil was a huge uh purificatory agent because they didn't have soap in the west in a lot of those preodern traditions. I want to say, you know, really before the crusades, pretty
10:44sure it was was the PersoAbics who popularized soap in Europe, but I could be wrong though. But um oil was another way to purify the body, you know, and uh various methods of doing all this stuff and everything I just said plays a part in in uh in ritual and in magic. But it's to this day you look at like the the ritual of of like the Catholic Church for instance, they sense and they aspire to generate the the incense uh the coals. Um it's typically, you know, they use uh resin like incense resin,
11:26teardrops of either myrrh or frankincense is the big one. And um you know it when you when you smell that church smell if you're a Catholic um or Orthodox and and you know they have the the Asperill uh which is essentially this it's just a rod with a with a metal ball on the end of it. Metal rod and ball. They dip it into the the the the holy water and they just fling it at the crowd and you're sitting there, you know, praying, taking water on the face, you're like, you know, it's uh but but
12:00so even to this day in like the major ritual that happens typically in the United States, which is the the you know, Christian forms of high mass, they they purif they purify the space and the the lesser ritual of the of the pentagram and to and absolutely to a greater extent the greater rituals there's all sorts of of things that are meant to purify a space and you purify things you know one of the one of the basic ways is like keep everything clean keep it dustfree don't go into a ritual
12:33like after the gym without showering that grime you know from a certain perspective it does attract it does attract a certain type of um etheric quality and uh or or or or etheric energy with a certain quality that is low very low vibration. Um to have things kind of not clean and unckempt, you know. Uh and um you know there's there's all these different formulas that you can use. Uh we use in the Golden Dawn we use the the calledan oracles are a huge formula. Um, you know, therefore the priest that
13:16uh governeth the works of fire must sprinkle with the lustal waters of the loud resounding sea. Um, that that's obviously the the calledan uh line for or the oracle for purification by water. And the one by fire is uh when after all the phantoms have been banished, thou shalt see that holy and formless fire, that fire which darts and flashes through the hidden depths of the universe. Hear thou the voice of fire. Typically you would do that with incense of some kind. And there these are from the call and
13:49oracles. And there are two more elementally. One for earth, one for air. Um but those are the purificatory uh canacles or whatever you want to call them. Um so purification has to happen first and typically it's multi-layered. Um you know, but there's lots of ways to do it. the there's a symbolism to it, but there's an there's also something that you're you're actually doing. There's a symbolism that is exalting and purifying in terms of, you know, psychologically.
14:23Um, but there is also an etheric quality to purification. There is an astral quality to purification. These things are are different. Etheric and astral do not mean the same thing. They likely don't mean what you think they do. Uh so so really it's a three-fold purification every time you open a working space, a temple space. — Yeah. And one of the things I was thinking about when you're talking too is even even with soap, modern soap, uh you know, you're make soap and so
14:55— you know very well, — uh isn't it that the ash is a a large part in producing soap and you know the ash being burnt ahead of time. So, it's kind of an interesting thing to think about. — Pot ash. Yeah. You run rain water or distilled water through pot ash and that gives you uh lie, your alkali salts. Um, and that's the thing. You tell people, "Oh, yeah, I make soap." And and they're they think melt and pour. And then you tell them, "No, I make it with lie,
15:26water, and fat." Because that's historically what soap is made out of. And actually, if you go to like stores and stuff and you look at your local soap, some of them say like bath bar or body bar because they can't legally call themselves soap. You have to have lie in order for it to be soap. Otherwise, it's not soap because it's actually the and they're naturally occurring. This is a totally naturally occurring process and it's alchemical. You bring all the ingredients together, they undergo a
15:53process called soponification. They become something completely different. And it's pretty interesting because rituals of purification can do the same thing. Now um what is really important is that well what about what about practical act in your life actions that you can take right so the formula in the golden dawn is to purify and consecrate you purify by water you consecrate by fire right so you're going to to purify the space through the the fluidic through the astral through the etheric and then you're you're going to
16:31consecrate which is to dedicate for a purpose to make right like with holiness you're you're making it holy to make holy is to consecrate right when bishops receive when priests become bishops they're not ordained they're consecrated they are made holy um so it's almost like a a dedication um when you consecrate something but now the way I do that and it took me years to figure this out because you're doing it in ritual format over and over and over. Every single day, every single
17:06ritual requires some sort of purification. And so then it just kind of happened that I began to to I would I found myself meditating, right, as part of my morning practice. That's something that I always do or always did. Haven't done it in a while. um and then go in and do ritual or prayer, right? I inflame myself with prayer. So, I'm purifying the mental state. I'm achieving that calm. I'm getting rid of everything I held on to, everything that saturated my psyche, whatever I did uh during sleep, whether
17:47it was, you know, just dreaming or some or astral travel or whatever it was. And then I'm going in and I'm starting my day in the early early morning. The first things that are coming out of my mouth are prayers, inflaming myself, consecrating, dedicating myself, rededicating. And you that is the trajectory of initiation is to reurify and reconsecrate over and over and over. It doesn't end. Mhm. — And then so when you're talking about like consecration, so is like something like holy water. I
Close chapter 1018:23I don't know what the source typically is. If it's just regular water, if it's spring water, if it's whatever and then I would assume that there's some sort of consecration aspect to that or — Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So it can be any kind of water really. Uh if you want to do spring water, go ahead. Uh but and I I I speak as somebody who, you know, fairly regularly consecrates incense and and and water uh for for those uses. Uh you know, I don't know how often I've
18:58mentioned this or if I have, but I am a deacon in a Gnostic tradition. Actually, I'm I'm most likely I'll be I'll be receiving ordination as a priest in that order. uh in that tradition soon, but it's been many years of of you know that kind of very low-level stuff. And it all it begins with an exorcism. You exorcise the water. Um, which isn't to say that it's got demons in it cuz it came from the city, from the tech, you know, and it's not any more free of etheric influence or elemental influence
19:35just because you got it at at a hot springs because what we're really talking about is any unwanted influence, perceived or unpersceived, right? There etheric charge, there's an there could be elemental contamination, uh um that kind of stuff. uh you know particular species of of of etheric energy in the land you know maybe things that have happened there and you want to talk about a grippa he says that in in he he he refers to it in in terms of air really he meant ether you know um but he
20:12talks about how like if something really traumatic happens in a place that energy will stay there for a really long time and pe other people will be able to feel it and sense it and that can true of of of traumatic things that happen in the land or on the land. Um so the first step is to purify the water which is which is to say to exorcise it in in the you know the name the three names of God you know God the father, God the son, God the holy spirit um and uh and then you consecrate it in uh in under the
20:47same opaces under the trinity uh to a a a spiritually purificatory uh purpose and and that in and of itself I mean in all these things there's the laying on of hands. So there is a transfer of etheric energy and it's just it is believed that when you when you are are ordained you receive the office of of diiacinate which is a deacon you're ordained a priest and then consecrated a bishop forget about it. you're supposed to have achieved or and and actually are granted a further species of purification
Close chapter 1121:26and and holiness, right? Consecration through those rituals, through those rights and through your performance and and partaking of of the mass that that purifies you so that when you go to lay hands on and and consecrate this water, the etheric charge that's coming through isn't dog [ __ ] Um because that can happen, right? There's a lot of people doing Reiki out there. It's like I don't know what you do with your energy body. You're putting your stuff into me. I I how do I know that you're a pure font of
21:58this energy? But, you know, so it it gets very dicey there. And and the main thing to me is that, you know, I really question whether or not people are just partaking in some level of secular escapist cosplay where they don't really believe in these things, but rather they've just suspended disbelief for the time so that they can engage with these things as a test to see if oh, can I re-enchant my world. So when people talk about lefthand path and doing demonic stuff and grimoire stuff and or or just even energy work without
22:40the understanding without even stopping to think do I need to purify myself before I go and put whatever's running through me and somebody else right to heal. um when when that consideration gets just breezed by to me it seems like there this is it's just some kind of secular tourism of you know can I make myself believe this stuff is it fun you know can it can it help me psychologically so um these are the things that people need to be thinking about everything has to be purified because everything eventually has to be
23:16spiritualized — all right so I got a question. So, is there like a limitation to the power of conscration? Like for example, maybe you have a mason jar of water or maybe you have a lake or a pond or a river. Like what's the limit? Like is there a potency aspect to consecration and then a duration of dissipation? I would say the first thing that comes to my head is to the limits of thy strength. What level are you personally able to consecrate things at? You know, it's like anything else. Um,
23:59when you first start running, maybe you can only run, you know, a small loop and then eventually you're up to a marathon level. You can do more. And it's the same thing through through you know purifying your own energy body working on the etheric working on the astral working on your the mundane skills of focus will attention imagination those are those are the magical powers people talk about like oh you know you say magical powers and they start thinking about like Harry [ __ ] Potter and it's like no no no you
24:32possess the magical powers that's what animals don't have that. We have that, you know, we we've that's why for for centuries, millennia, human beings were considered, you know, the the the the highest creation. um you know, the most the most developed, the most godlike, and we are, you know, um but you know, focusing, honing in on those mundane things like willpower and imagination, focus, uh these are magical powers. these will improve your ability uh to consecrate to purify um you know kind of one of the things
25:20about the saints that's the whole thing is like people people always think that like Christianity is against magic it's it cath Catholicism is not against magic in the new testament the only thing the only admonition is is is against uh you know pharmcoy or pharmarmacia essentially um herbalists, but the connotation was, you know, witches, you know, uh witch doctors and things like that. At the end of the day, magic has been with Cath Catholicism from the very beginning, you know, it's it's
25:57bursting with magic. Um so, uh I completely lost my train of thought, but — yeah. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that the, you know, the Pharmarmacia thing. That was something I think I brought that up with one of the interviews I did with Douglas Gabriel because I was kind of picking his brain about that um particular verse or whatever it was. But, um, you know, cuz that's some of the common argument against things like um that would be considered sorcery or whatever to some
26:29individuals. And to me, it seemed like the connotation of the word itself was geared towards the description of maybe herbalism done in the form of harm or something along those lines or like a a substance that is procured with ill intention or like that to me was what seemed like pharmarmacia was being alluded to. — Yeah, absolutely. Because um pharmarmacia is different than uh yatros which is doctor right? Pharmarmacia is is like an herbalist and um yeah absolutely uh somebody who specifically worked with
27:17plants to distill certain things and and make certain potions and things like that. Uh, but um I don't I'm not sure where I was going to go with that because I can't remember what I was saying before I kind of went — Well, my original question was about the — Oh, I know. I remember. — Okay. — I remember I was going for the saints. — Okay. — The saints were essentially magicians. They were people who could talk to animals. St. Francis made an almond tree bloom. you
27:50know, uh, these were so but these were people who lived, you know, lives of of of, you know, high restraint and high dedication, you know, and um, that's another thing, you know, in in in medieval renaissance forms of magic. I mean, even up until like somebody as recent as Anton Kmers or or or um you know, uh Ellis Levy go even further. Uh the founders of the hermetic order of the Golden Dawn, they were all saying like the only way you can gain magic powers, you know, to become strong, magically strong to the point where you
28:32could, as you say, perhaps consecrate a river, you know, in perpetuity is to live a saintly life. is to live a life of discipline of control. Now um you know a little different in the Golden Dawn. In the Golden Dawn they they thought that if you could suffer a severe discipline in a city you were even more powerful. You were even more holy because um I think Wescott puts it like uh um he says something to the effect in one of the flying roles that like it doesn't matter if you go live in a forest. If you're a slave to yourself,
29:07you will practice vice in that forest, you know. So, it's uh that kind of thing. So, so the level of available energy and and quote unquote I hate this word, but power available to a particular person depends on how much they have developed the in themselves. I don't think that anything is impossible. But you need to pay that price. Nothing is free. I'll put it that way. Nothing is impossible but nothing is free. — And so like with the trinitarian thing that you mentioned in regards to consecr
Close chapter 1429:44consecration or purification and then you also mentioned like the laying on of hands as well. So is this done like in terms of methodology this laying on of hands and is it like some sort of trinitarian prayer is that like the formula or the modus operandi of a traditional form of consecrating? — Yeah. I mean so you you consecrate holy water the same in in a similar way. I'm not going to say the same but the same way that you would consecrate a bishop or ordain a priest. There's a laying out
30:15of hands in those rituals, in those rights, you know, your the the officiating priest or officiating uh bishop in the case of a bishop has to lay hands or or and in the case of a priest, right? Um has to lay hands on uh on the um the candidate. So yeah, I mean that's that's a huge part of it. It's a huge part of Catholicism. And even recently when I was exploring the healing temples of Egypt, you can see the priest class doing the same thing. You know, somebody kneeling down in front of them and either a pharaoh or
30:56a or a priest literally just their hands like this floating over the person's head. Um, I mean, and and in the Catholic church too, you you know, you offer it, you're asked sometimes the congregation is asked to offer a sign of blessing to a child who's brought to the altar, you know, before the congregation is either sick or is about to graduate elementary school or did really well in softball, who knows, community thing, but they say, you know, let us offer a sign of blessing. And you raise your
31:24right hand and you just do this. You face the palm towards them. Now in Chinese medicine you've got uh PC8 which is a major acupoint here and it's one that is that that is the right hand projects the left hand receives. Now I think personally um it the dominant hand projects you know and the the secondary or recessive whatever you want to call it hand the non-dominant hand um receives. So um you know that is something that is well fleshed out in many many many many uh forms of spiritual practice and just traditional
Close chapter 1532:07thought. Anatomy philosophy you know uh anatomy and energy theory were not two separate things until fairly recently. All right sweet. So that answers a lot of my questions that that was really interesting. So all right symbols um implements in the practice and theory. So we see a lot of uh patterns of symbolism within things like the tarot you know they're a lot intertwined with various esoteric orders. I don't know if some are exclusive to the Golden Dawn like I don't know like the Krux uh and
32:45or what um but yeah — Krugansata yeah — the Krugs is just the ank that's all the krugs is — oh okay — yeah so those were there's there was five in particular I was just interested in kind of unpacking the symbolism and utilization within um you know Golden Dawn and whatnot So, one was the the wands and then the cups, uh, daggers, the crooken scourge. Is that the right way to say that? Scorge. — Scourge. Yeah, — scourge. And then the kruan. — Kransata.
33:22— Kransa. — So, that that's just a Latin a Latin term to refer to the ankh. And the ank um in Egypt, I believe it means like key of life. So, where do you want me to start? — Uh, start with the wands. — Okay. Unequivocally, the wand represents the will. Um, it should be an extension of the magician and it is uh it has typically a an elementally firebased connotation. Now, if you look in other forms of magic, let's say you look at like um Francis King and Dr. Skinner,
34:04right? one of his early works with with Francis King. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. I mean, it's basically a reiteration of the Golden Dawn early stuff. Um, there's nothing new in it, but there's highly highly informative stuff. It's called Techniques of High Magic. It's a great book for beginners, especially if you don't want to join an order. I recommend that one. The only thing is they correspond wand to air, which is no, absolutely not. The wand has a phallic germinative connotation.
34:38Right now, if you're looking at the four-fold schema of the tetra grammaton, yod is the fiery germinative aspect. It looks like a sperm. Um, and that's because it's supposed to be a seed really in that connotation, but also a flame. So, a fiery flame, a fiery seed, which is what? A spark, right? which we have in us, the shikina, the divine presence, the sparks of God. This is what the will is supposed to represent in the microcosm of the magician. Um, it's supposed to represent the will,
35:16not the lower will, the higher will. Now, we got some a lot of times we got to work our way up, you know, and this there's some really cool stuff actually um that I'm going to go into for the Agrippa course I'm teaching that uh I I am so 100% confident that this is and I didn't even realize it till I started chipping away at it. This the stuff that's in the the first book of the Agria course that I'm giving is um it is all of magic. It's the Suma magika, complete magic. Um, and there's a lot of
35:53ways to understand why we have to work from the material to get to the supra celestial, right? Go not even the celestial, go past it, but you have to start with the material. Um, the representation of that virtue which is abstract and comes from the mind of God. the representation of that virtue in Malca Vessiah and you work your way up and uh so that's what the wands do that is uh basically the long and short of it I mean I could go on but I think there's something really apppropo in being very
Close chapter 1736:33concise and to the point about the willy and then how about for the cups that was my next one that I wanted to get a little bit of insight into. — So cups are the emotional nature, the heart, um the re the receptive capacity. So the will is the projective, right? Like we say, it's that German. And I'm going to get a little crude here, but I I'm not doing it on I'm not doing it to be gross. I'm doing it because everything in nature is the special example of overarching completely transcendental
37:13principles. So if you look at the will, what does it what does it you know it has that phallic quality to it in the wand, right? And what does the male organ do when it is about to perform, right? It — projects it well it projects, right? It has to grow, you know, and and it it it it projects forward. And then what what is the act projection, — right? And then what is the finality of it? — Multiplication. — Well, yes. But but before that it has to project sperm. — Everything is a pushing forward. And if
37:55you look at um if you look at hookma that is exactly the transcendental superernal principle of projection. literally the the dot of kether you know the the point having um dimension but no spatial locality turning into the line it's moving it's pure movement now without the this the um sort of thrusting block of beina form that energy dissipates to nothing nothing it cannot find any ground to grow when it exhausts itself. And this is why men and women work the way that they work because it's not it's not
38:40performative. We are physical expressions of the pattern of God. The create the pattern the triune pattern of creation. Okay, that is that it it goes so far beyond nature. it. We are literally constantly reenacting the divine formula and it's holographic and it's fractal and it's in everything all the time. Now what we want to do in using these implements is isolate them. Call them to the four in the psyche or cabalistically the ruach or but well I should say also in the sphere of sensation of the microcosm and these
39:22things will start to burgeon forth parts of our personality. If you if you work with the cups and you meditate on the cups what are they? Receptive. They're containers, you know. Um, and if you start meditating on them, you become more receptive. You become more feminine. You become more of the ba quality. If you saturate your psyche in that kind of symbolism because the the the wand is incomplete without the cups. Once you're a Golden Dawn adept, every time you have one of your tools out, all
39:56of them have to be there. M — you can't go and just say I'm just going to use my one. No, because now you have completely screwed up the equilibrium of the four elements in your sphere of of sensation because all of these things your element your your tools are your tools because they represent parts of your microcosm. And if you use one to the exclusion of the others, you're now altering that balance in your microcosm. So, um you you will always want all four of your implements out there. Um anytime
Close chapter 1840:29you're going to use the cups exclusively, you've got to have the dagger, the pentacle, and the um and and the wand. — Well, I I didn't want I wasn't going to ask about that one. I hadn't crossed my mind, but obviously it is important. The pentacle, maybe we could talk about the dagger first and then we'll talk about the pentacle. Well, one thing that I want to say too about um about the cup is that it holds water. Okay? And water is fluidic. And it's not just the emotional nature. It's
41:02the intuitive nature, the the the the fluidic seas of the unconscious, the subconscious, the that connection that to to the astral realm. And not only that, but like also the the etheric, if you can see it. And it's been described this way by Levy and by Mesmer, by tons of of of of occultists. It is a fluid fire. It's a fluidic light. And to me, there's something about the cups that also suggests that. However, it also has a fiery aspect. Um, so so there's that to think about when
41:40you're thinking about cups. The dagger is the intellect. Um, and now for all the bashing of Crowley I've done, he had one amazing book which is of use to a balanced magician, especially starting out, book four. And part of that is because he would get high on hashish and pace and dictate it and his secretary would type it out and organize his thoughts. So, it's eminently readable um and organized because he actually didn't write it. — Is that the book that has all the different correspondences in it or is
42:17that a different book of his? — That's that's that's 777. 777 is barely [ __ ] readable. It's essentially a magician's tables that were circulated in the hermetic order of the Golden Dawn. That's what they did in the early order. you could have this for a week and you pay us a penny or two pennies or whatever, two cents, whatever it was. You have this for a week and you copy it by hand. And that's that's what all the the curriculum and the grade material was. And they had these inner order um
42:49uh pamphlets and tables that they pass around. 777 was a complete table cabalistically, elementally, all that stuff. And Crowley Crowley basically he plagiarized it. He published it and said it was his idea and he he appended uh some commentaries to it. But that aside — because I don't want to go off on a crowly tangent just yet. — I want to finish on the dagger. What he had to say about the dagger is incredible. And it's one of the best things I've ever heard anybody say about
Close chapter 1943:15the dagger. Especially because we live in a paradigm right now that all anyone has is a [ __ ] dagger. — Um it's the intellect. And the intellect brings hubris because it only knows how to do one thing. The dagger is a fitting implement for the intellect because the intellect has to analyze. What does analyze mean? We think, right? Because we don't understand. We have such cultural and just in general, we have this tendency to [ __ ] amnesia generationally. We don't understand the
43:52original archaic meanings of these words. So we think analyze and we think like okay data analysis or I got to mentally an analyze this. Analysis means to take apart. That's what that that that's exactly that's what that word means is to take it apart. — Synthesize is to put it together. Analyze is to break it down. And that's the only thing that a knife can do is cut things into ever smaller pieces. So you will never be able to get to unity to holism with the discursive mind. This
44:29is where I disagree with a lot of the early Greek philosophers. But I do I do not believe that that is I believe that that that was the nth degree and Aristotle started bringing us down that that track. And uh but I think eminently Plato um knowing that there was an unwritten doctrine right that Aristotle talks about in two of his books physics and metaphysics. He says there was an agra dogmata in the Platonic tradition, an unwritten teaching or unwritten uh you know dogma in that rule. And I think a lot of that
45:02was more mystical and less intellectual. Um and that's why people will look at the Platonic dialogues and think like oh this this was science for the time. It sounds ridiculous now. It wasn't science. They're mystical documents. You're reading them wrong. And so go ahead. I was going to say that it kind of uh when you're talking about that kind of brought me back to this this thought on pharmarmacia seems to me like the whole notion of that was an overbalance of the intellect or the
45:30synthesis but lacking that holistic um implementation of the other elements like if I was to it kind of just brought that to my mind when you're talking about that — and how true is that in terms of modern day uh you know pharmaceuticals because we have a lot of these you know medicines that I'm very familiar with that are produced very holistically with every bit of intentionality and holism. And then we have these patented uh synthesized compounds that they're maybe they'll just add something to it just
46:03for the sake of making it different so that they can exclusively own and patent a particular compound. like things along these lines. Like that seems like the dark use of of um of medicine or something along those lines. — Yeah. I mean, it's the commercial use, which is the dark use. — Yeah. — Um people will people will argue with with me to death about uh financial implications and stuff like that, but ultimately um for this episode, it's neither here nor there. But at the end of the day,
46:35anytime that something is commercialized, you you are you it's it's essentially a dark usage of it. Um — right, Mammon, you can right that's what Christ said. You cannot serve two gods or you cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve God and mammon. But mamonus in Greek is money. Um and he also said it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. So, um, there's a lot of reasons for that. I'm not saying good can't be done
47:07with money, right? And I know a lot I know I know lack of money, poverty causes a lot of evil, but the problem with that is that you're not looking at big enough of a [ __ ] picture. You're on the ground. I'm in the sky. You know, I'm looking at the whole thing and say like it's the the system. the system has got to [ __ ] go because that is the only thing that's keeping us trapped in everything we hate. Everything that bothers us is is because we won't leave this uh financial system completely.
Close chapter 2047:40— Yeah, absolutely. — That's a different podcast though. — It is. Um All right. So, let's talk about the crook and the scorch. Scorch. Yes. — Well, did you want me to hit on the pentacle? — Oh, yeah. Please. Please. Remember, if I take one of my tools out, I got to have all four of them. — Got to have all four of them. I apologize. — Pentacle is uh element is elemental earth, whereas the dagger is or the dagger is air, I should say. So, we're
48:05wand, fire, cups, water, excuse me, dagger, air, uh pentacle, earth. So, now the thing is it's not it gets called a pentacle, but it's not a pentacle. It's a pentacle because it's a disc. — Oh. and and pantaculum in Latin means hung from the neck. — So the disc is actually that they call it a pentacle and it gets mistaken for pentacle. Penta meaning five. That's a that pentacle is the pent angle like a the pentagram but that's not what's on the golden dawn pentacle. It's the hexog
48:45that's on the golden dawn pentacle. Um uh because by the time you've made your tools, you should be an adept. You don't make your tools before you're an adept because your your your microcosm is not balanced yet. It hasn't undergone the alchemy of the outer order, the salv coagula formula. So if you're making tools without having undergone the salv coagula, your tools are going to be out of balance. — Um so so that's the whole thing. And the the the hexog represents balance, right?
49:17Here's it's another great reason. It's it's it is the consumation of all four elements, right? Uh maybe we can include a graphic for this. Take the the alchemical symbol for fire, the upright triangle, the alchemical symbol for water, uh the triangle apex downwards. You marry them and from that marriage you get air and earth, right? Mhm. — It's, you know, it the the air, for instance, is the fire triangle with the bottom line of the water triangle through it. And then it and then vice versa. The the
49:55earth triangle is the water triangle with the bottom the basal line of the fire triangle running through it. So, so that that's that's what the the one of the significations or the symbolism of the hexog on the pentacle, but it's supposed to represent, you know, uh your physical life, your physical body. You, you know, even, you know, if you want to look at it in terms of like it's a disc, it kind of resembles a coin. Coins used to be made out of, you know, they're still made out
50:24of metal, but uh metals metals are found in the earth. Um but that is it also serves as a shield really the the the the pantacle is a shield also it's like a buckler you know uh a small shield but um lots of uses for it and uh that in short is um it's about as much as I want to go into right now concerning that stuff. — Okay, cool. And then so I guess let's move on and go to the uh croo scourge — scourge — scourge. Thank god we have you here to correct my — I'm obnoxious.
Close chapter 2151:08— I appreciate it. — Okay. Uh so there are certain things about the crook and scourge as they appear in the um adeptist minor ceremony that I cannot talk about. So um if you're listening to this and you've been initiated and undergone the 56 curriculum at least up and up until exam and you know either you know a don't get it twisted I know my [ __ ] but also b don't be afraid. I'm not going to say any of the the advanced stuff. Um, but if you look at um a lot of Egyptianerary
51:55statuary or or art, you'll see um in crossed position, their hands over their chest like this is the sort of like the burial posture. um the mummification posture and often times they'll be holding a shepherd's crook. Uh and I've not seen it in person like in my travels in Egypt, but also sometimes they have a scourge. And a scourge is essentially a set of flails like a catinet tails. It's you know it's it's a whip. — Okay. It's it's it's basically a rod and
52:35at the end of it is dried animal skin, dried hide. It's it's leather and it's used to whip horses. Uh you know, slaves. I don't know. The the ancient Egyp the the modern Egyptians insist that there were no slaves. And I tend to agree with them — uh to be honest. They insist that there was no slavery actually. And they found that they in the Hebrew communities that assisted in their their building projects, they found all the amenities of of like community that you typically
53:05would not find in — maybe servants but not slaves. Um — so — yeah. So and they their big defense on that is also like slaves can't build something this perfect. They they're never going to give as much of a [ __ ] — I would agree with that. — Yeah, me too. But um anyway, again, my digression, my pointless digressions, but uh so a good ruler should be able to use both. And what are we aiming for in the Golden Dawn? When you're an adept, what are you an adept of? Well, you're
Close chapter 2253:37an adept of the outer order, right? When you come into become a neoight again in the inner order, right? You think you're hot [ __ ] right? And you're not. You're a neopight now. you're only it's only now that you can begin. All that other stuff was getting you ready to begin and um you should be attempting to become an adept over yourself and so you have to become the the ruler you know in your ownstead. Uh that's developing the magical powers will imagination focus um attention
54:16intention. So there is a cabalistic significance to this and the cabalistic significance is obvious, right? Mercy, the shepherd's crook, the good shepherd. I lead my people, you know, I ultimately I ultimately impart upon them a species of benevolence, right, in leading them. I'm not going to lead them astray. I'm not going to leave and I'm talking about the symbolism of the crook. I'm not talking about what Golden Dawn adepts think of themselves, right? We have no people. But I'm talking about the symbolism of
54:49the shepherd's crook. If you don't know what it is, look it up. It's real quick. Bishops typically carry it because they're shepherds of their quote unquote flock. But it's supposed to, right? If if you even in ancient Egyptian times before Christ, right, who was the good shepherd, even before that, in ancient Egyptian times, the crook was a symbol of a good leader. And the good leader had qualities like fairness, benevolence, loyalty to his people, you know, the desire to protect. But now what comes
55:25how how else to protect them? Well, you need to. So if the crook is on the side of mercy, then the scourge is on the side of guru. And like I continually tell people, nothing on the upright tree is evil. You need to know when and how to use it. Okay? You need the scourge in life for yourself, for other people. You set boundaries with yourself. You set boundaries for other people, right? You need to be able to whip yourself into shape. You need to be able to, you know, um have that guru force and they're
56:04working together. Okay? So, a good leader and a good adept carries the crook and the scourge. But here's the thing, and I was asked this at a Masonic lecture that I gave a couple nights ago for the Scottish right. There's a picture of me in between two um uh sarcophagi, — the uh the mummies, you know, and at the temple of Apepsis. And you know they're like this and I'm standing in the middle like this. And one of my very observant brothers he said, "So is there any reason why you have your
56:47left arm over the right?" And I explained to him the cabalistic significance. It's always been this way in the Golden Dawn. This is in the earliest earliest lectures. When you impose the tree of life on the human body, you back into it. You don't walk into it. So what does that mean? It means that the pillar of severity is on the left hand. I mean the I'm sorry. The pillar of mercy is on the left hand. The pillar of severity is on the right hand. Okay. Um if you're looking at it, that's different. Uh
57:24people say left-hand path. Well, the [ __ ] joke's on you. But the thing is actually that that term left-hand path comes from an earlier I believe Vadic tradition. Um I think like it has more to do with like tantra stuff like that. But PE like magicians will apply it to the tree of life thinking like yeah eat severity in in actual and this is this is the way that occult blinds are set up to trick you so that you don't find unless you know unless you've had this teaching you wouldn't know that the tree of life you
57:56back into it. The pillar of mercy is on the left hand side. Um, so what we what we do in this in this posture because Golden Dawn adepts assume this posture often in ritual. Okay, it's extremely significant. The left hand is always over the right because the crook always goes over the scourge. You always lead with mercy. Mercy has to know not when to apply itself but when to allow severity to ex to to to express itself. So the dominant thing is that my default thing that keeps this productive
58:43that keeps this, you know, noble is the fact that my mercy is holding it back until now it's time to let the the scourge out because there is an application for it. So these are very very important things and there's other symbolism to them that if you want to know go become a Golden Dawn adept because I'm not going to tell you. — Yeah. Beautiful night. That was all super enlightening and informative. I didn't that was more cool than I thought it was going to be. So that's awesome.
Close chapter 2359:20No have much to look forward to in regards of unveiling those mysteries. Um all right. So then Krooks an Shasta Krooks shast anasta. — Uh yeah — Krooks shasta — just call it the ank. — The ank — the kransada is um obviously the ank. Now um there's lots of things I could say about it but what is prudent? It's the key of life technically. And rather than unfolding and give and saying things that technically I've, you know, I've taken obligations not to talk about, um,
1:00:09I'm going to throw some stuff at you. Look at the shape of the ank and look at where and when it appears, who is holding it in like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. And another thing is contemplate what it looks like. Right? So the and I can lead you to this. I can lead you at least this far about the krugan sat. Krugan sat is the key of life. It's all it's the key to the gate of life, right? And one of the things Hold on one sec. So maybe that was a little bit of a synchronicity like
1:00:49don't tell them anymore. Um, but I'll take you this far. Krug Sansa is the gate is the key to the gate of life. It is the key of life and it resembles what you ask me. — Yeah. What does it resemble? Think about think about — I would think it has something to do with the feminine masculine coming together. Um maybe the uh — to a degree to a degree it's definitely it's definitely more heavy on the feminine than it is on the masculine. the krugan sada. Now, this is one of those
1:01:31— the uh — the uh that's very — portal. — That's very see now you're on to something. the kran sada according to you know when like Max Heindel and all these guys these old [ __ ] you know uh 19th 20th century Rozy Christians they were talking about how the krugs and I don't I don't think they're wrong but it's you know I wouldn't be so bold as to assert that but it's an interesting correlation kruan sata being the ancient form of the the symbol for the for the
1:02:05planet Venus They're the same thing. It's a cross surmounted by a circle. uh you know — in your um I guess traditionally it's common understanding the ancient Egyptians they were more of a matriarchal or patriarchal society or — they were abs 110,000% they were not a matriarchal society there were like there were like I think like three or four female pharaohs and the and the only one, you know, and they had they had to rule because they they had this thing about bloodlines in ancient Egypt.
1:02:50Um, which we can get into that the occult significance of blood and things like that because — that is that's I mean I learned more about that from the the Dowist perspective — I mean dowist stuff is way more it embraces chi theory. Chi theory is the first thing you learn and then everything else is secondary.QI is etheric energy. — So it's um you know that's really interesting. But they had this thing about bloodlines and so when when female leaders took the throne they did so
1:03:26because they had to because either their sons you know were were not old enough or incompetent or somebody had died. And Hatcheepsut was one of the the new kingdom uh lady pharaohs and she was arguably she was the only pharaoh to rule in Egypt in a in a time of prosperity. She did a great job. And that's not to say anything about about women, but it's it's more so that you know historically, you know, incontrovertibly a patriarchy. Um but in terms of let me let me back up incontrovertibly a
1:04:07patriarchy in terms of the outward presentation. — Okay. because the marriage was extremely important and particularly in the new kingdom statuary uh in um Luxor and Carac uh you see the pharaohs the great pharaohs sitting beside their queens you know they're they're not just portrayed it's this is the the the royal couple and that is very very important they didn't separate male and female, but the masculine embodied the active — out there, you know, out in public, you
1:04:53know, uh is the face of things, you know, warlike a lot of the time. and and then the feminine receptive uh was more of the the power behind the power, you know, the other half of the duo, you know, but just not not the not the public face of it all. But they didn't um you know, it was huge. I mean even if you look at the Opeth festival and stuff like that they in their pantheon of gods there was always was always some kind of pair male female pair you know and because they understood that this is the
1:05:33way the p the underlying pattern of the universe is male female you know it's it's just too it's it's lock and key that's all anything is you can you can look at it from human sexuality and reproduction to like enzymes s you could, you know, you could go like granular, molecular, microbial. It's, you know, it's all — in one in one way or the other. — Aren't you aware um males males can have babies these days? So, it's 2023, so — we we're not going to be around for that
1:06:07much longer. That's okay. I don't feel I don't feel too bad about that. — Just kidding. — No, I know. I know. But uh yeah, so that's uh I I think that answers that. I mean, obviously the the history, particularly the ancient history of Egypt, you know, the old, middle, and new kingdom, that's a huge swath of time. So, I'm sure somebody could, you know, some, you know, stuffy, uptight academic with like this really horrible voice could point to some obscure passage that says,
1:06:42"No, actually, you know, but but the the truth of the matter is that that's that's what we're left with, right? I mean, how many did you did you know of any names of the female pharaohs or like have you heard of Hepset before?" You know, — I only know like a couple even male pharaohs. So, — right. So, it's like because it's that wasn't a thing. — Yeah, that's interesting. And look how successful they were with their society. We still have the beautiful remnants to
Close chapter 251:07:13this day. Um maybe uh can give a little overview and insight um into like like the within the Golden Dawn there, you know, I've just come across different grades and it's always been a mystery to me when I see like it'll say like 2= 9 or 3= 7. Like what's the scoop in the significance with these this numerological like correspondences in regards to the grades? Like what's that all about? I mean, at least as far as I am aware, um, this is one of those things in the Golden Dawn that you scratch your head
1:08:00at when you're a newbie and then you just kind of like you get all this material dumped in front of you that you have to just push through and get tested on and all this crazy stuff and that never ends. Even as an adept, I'm taking more tests. Um, but that's you get all that stuff thrown at you and then you just kind of forget about about the numbering systems. But the numerical system has to do with the the sephirot on the tree of life.
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Two Chaldean Oracles frame purification: the priest who governs the works of fire sprinkles with the lustral water of the loud-resounding sea, and when all phantoms are banished the holy and formless fire is seen. Purification comes first and is threefold each time a temple space is opened: psychological, etheric and astral, which are not the same thing.
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