The Path of the Unknown Philosopher: Martinism, the Elu Cohen, and the Light of Christian Mysticism

30:57grimoire tradition he then stripped them really mostly of the Hebraic names as far as one can in favor of things like using the names of the evangelists, you know, uh Mark, John, Luke, and Matthew, things like that. he wanted to go strictly old uh strictly New Testament with everything which to a degree I I you know I I'm behind that and that that has to do with the idea that um you know look at Marcianite Gnosticism and and other things like that that equate the the the demiurge with uh the God of the

31:37Old Testament, right? going from all the thou shalt not all that stuff that's in the Old Testament. Christ never said thou shalt not, you know, he never threatened, you know, uh uh the same kind of things. You'll feel my wrath. You you'll dip the the tongues of your dogs in your enemy's blood and things like that. Um and that's the disparity, right? That's the disparity. You get all these people saying like, "Well, if God loves you so much, why are you going to hell?" It's like, "Well, that's the Old

32:10Testament, right? They didn't say in the Old Testament that God loves you." The Old Testament was contractual. You do A, I give you B. It's when Christ comes that he says there's there's a God behind the God. There is there is something higher. And that is explicitly what the demiurge is said to be in Valentinian Sethian uh basaliannosticism in in — Marian Marci too. Yes. uh uh you know even mandan nasticism all these forms ofnosticism a ver that the demiurge is you know there whatever created this

32:51universe whether or not right sethianism will tell you that it's hostile baselianism valentinianism not so right I believe it's in the val the the basalitian corpus where uh it might be in the exogetica but he talks about how like the coming of Christ actually made the demiurge want to repent and say look I'm sorry I just didn't realize I didn't realize there was anything higher than me. So so you you have you have that conception there too in Pasquali and that was the job of the El Cohen the the

33:26um the knight mason elect priests of the universe it's that that those degrees are ordinations. You become a priest. It's a laying on of hands. It's not it's not like getting bonked on the head like okay you're with us now you know you you become a priest and essentially you live as a lay priest. You have not been ordained by any formal what you know you would have had to have been Catholic had to have been Catholic. Um and some iterations of the Lu Cohen to this day they will only elect

34:01Catholics. Um so um he's pulling from nobility because they have the time and the money because essentially there are daily prayers, there are morning prayers, there are night prayers, there are theurgic uh operations. You need to have an oratory that is secluded. You have to have certain uh weaponry, right? It's shavalic masonry. You're a knight, you need a sword. It's, you know, it's all that kind of stuff. And knights were not poor people. Knights were the nobility. That's people get it twisted. The the

34:33noblemen um of that era were were the fighting men. Really? — Yeah. Okay. And then how about um uh of errors and truth by Louis Claude de Sam Martan? Um what is the kind of general overview of this text? Um well I I believe that's where he goes into the idea of um the forest of errors and uh men of desire and he starts expounding this philosophy that kind of begins to scrape away or like scratch away at that remember cuz he wasn't writing for like an order. There was no order. He wasn't writing for mere

35:31esotericists. He was writing for educated people that understood um philosophy in general. And what he really was combating was this kind of you know materialism that that existed uh even even in under the opaces of something like the you know the religious authority of that time um I mean France is such an interesting place — I'd love to go there um the thing about it is that it has given us men of spiritual genius. And it also gave us the Marquee Desad. — What's that? — So, what's that?

36:14— What is that? — Oh, you got to look that up. That's a whole other episode, my friend. — I've never even heard that. — You know, I never heard of the Marque Desad. — No. — Okay. That's where we get the term sadistic from. — Okay. — So, think about this. was a man who uh had like orgies of underage people and he would just uh like violent sex just it's insane. You you I wouldn't recommend you read him. It's probably

36:40going to leave like a little black smudge on your soul for the rest of your life. But do do the Wikipedia do the cliff notes of the marquee desad. Okay. So that's kind of been France for it's like you have you know um uh these great geniuses and then you have men like uh this people like Voltater. We [ __ ] hate it. I hate Voltaare. Um but anyway so so it's it's basically that I would I would call of Eros and Truth the primer for like if somebody were were to come to me and say I'm I'm

37:11interested in Martinism. Okay here's the first book that you're going to read. It's heavy. It's big but get it through Rose Circle. And how about what becomes of the dead by Papus which I also think his name is Gerard Enas is that — Giron Anko or something like that you know like it's like French they don't present they don't they don't pronounce like the last eight word eight letters or something — um I I I have not read much by Papu or Papus I have read. I haven't read that.

37:49I have read uh an elementary treatise on practical magic which is it's like too theosophical for my tastes. It's it — uh and I've read the Tarot of the Bohemians which was excellent. I love the Tarot of the Bohemians, right? Cuz again, you have — it was such a weird time, right? um France Anton Mesmer coming about uh you know around the same time I think it was the early 1700s it was basically doing reike key for French people uh you know and this idea of animal magnetism you had

38:30the theosophical society come in at the same time there was this burgeoning uh new scientific revolution and you had all of these communities attempting to explain the mechanisms and the rationale for stuff that really has no still no scientific uh explanation, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't be mysteries. We call them the mysteries for a reason. Um but they were attempting to explain these things uh using what the the the vernacular of of early scientism really and it it comes across as as ridiculous

39:12uh now when you read it because and I I mentioned this in my latest video which which is about to go up uh tomorrow. They didn't realize what was going on at the time because they're all fighting for a space in the new world, right? It's it's like finder, right? End of the century Europe. And they're all fighting for these ideals, theosophical ideals, hermetic magical ideals. uh um you know uh Louis Pastor and germ theory and all this this stuff like that and the Theosophical Society and the you know

39:47these these theurgic Christians they're all fighting for space and in in the overarching uh intellectual community dialogue and the language that it's taking place in is this new scientific vernacular this new way of looking at at all systems. It's a it's a in the truest sense it is becoming the paradigm and they're all trying to explain what what they specialize in or what they believe through that language. And what what what the issue is is that anytime you use one system to examine

40:20something, you take that thing and you place it within the paradigm of that system and now that's the only way that you can explain it. And so with with with scientific materialism, positivism, reductionism, there you you there can be no examination of the spirit of the spiritual based on an a priority basis. If you can't explain it physically, but it still occurs. You have to find a physical explanation whether that is the truth of the matter or not. So, so, um, you know, you were having a lot of that stuff and I I see

40:54that some of that come off in in uh in Papus's, uh, elementary treatis on practical magic. So, it's not my favorite and but Tarot of the Bohemians is fant I mean, I would even I would recommend just reading the introduction anybody who's interested in uh in the occult in general. So, that is a very long way of saying I have no idea. — I apologize. — No worries. And uh okay so in terms of old sources or initiates I read something and I'll I'll read it and then you can respond. Um known in the occult

41:27circles of today Henry Deug deluj uh wrote a number of books of which doctrines de societies secretes published in 1852 is probably the most wellknown. Papus exchanged initiations with Chab Chabasu. The reason being — Chabaso. Yeah. — Okay. The reason being an uncertainty about one of the initiated in the lineage of Papus. It was unknown who initiated Henry de Deluj. This statement was made by how do you say that again? Cha Chaba Chabasu. — Chabaso. — Chabaso himself. And

42:10— that's how I say it. Did I say Shabaso? — Shabaso himself in an interview by Gerard von Renberg published in his book on Martinez de Pasquual. So I was wondering like this uh do you know anything about this Henry Deluj figure or this or or yeah Chab Chabaso? Um, I don't really uh particularly about Henry Deluji. Uh, I'm assuming he's French, but um, I do know that for my own tastes, uh, it's right around this point in time where like [ __ ] just gets too hairy for

42:50my taste really. Um, and because it becomes this pissing contest that has been the black, — it's it's but it's just the black stain of Martinism, you know. Um, — and I think one of the reasons for that is that it's still it still resembles masonry at least more than the Golden Dawn does. Um, and there are certain types that are drawn to a very Masonic kind of hierarchy in order to make their mark or uh, you know, rub some elbows. And um, it that's becoming less and less

43:33a thing, right? Because like, you know, the heads of like corporations and things like that are they're not they're not masons anymore, you know? I don't know what they are. I'm not sure they know what they are, but um but uh that's probably a good thing. But um uh it's at that point if you look into the history of Martinism, it kind of all just goes drastically downhill um pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. And you still see the ramifications of that because now not only is it like France, it's

44:07like London, it's America. There's all these these all these um schisms and and splinter orders and things like that and uh the internet has not helped much. Um having access to kind of like computer translation programs that has not helped much. You just throw throw a tech like I don't know you know scan a text on your phone and have it translated for you and then sell it. Uh I'm not I'm not 100% sure that that's done great things for uh for modernism. So, uh, again, I'm not

44:40really I'm not great with the the politics particularly of, uh, uh, especially of Martinism. And I think that a lot of that also has to do with the fact that it doesn't interest me, uh, the same way that the Golden Dawn stuff interests me. That stuff interests me because it's not — it's not this kind of like, who let him in? I didn't let him in. Did you let him in? No, I I didn't let him in. Then how do you get in? It's not it's not that kind of stuff with the Golden Dawn. With

45:10the Golden Dawn, it's like this bat [ __ ] crate like the horos scandal. I mean, just the wildest stuff that you couldn't even uh dream up if you tried. So, it just more colorful characters, more women, you know, which it's to me there's always more — like women. — Yeah, absolutely. I mean the thing is there well I mean in in ritual there's more magic with them than without him. Um but uh you know just more personalities more it seems more real life than this kind of it at a certain

45:45point like masonry the the the the narcissism of minor differences it becomes so petty that it resembles like a Monty Python skit to me. So, uh, I I I really I can't really be bothered with a lot of that stuff, but you might be on to something pretty cool. And so, that's that's something I think that I'll definitely at the very least check out and turn my eye towards because, you know, there could be something interesting there. I don't know enough about it to kind of like poo poo it. But

46:17all this is to say that when I do see like schism stuff like that, I I tend to turn away because we're now now we're now we've diverged from why I'm here, which is the spiritual, — right? — Yeah. — So, let's let's get more into a little bit of the alooen. Um, so you had mentioned, I think you were alluding to the notion of the alocco being heavily associated with or forming out of the Masonic structure. Was this something that was was it was it Masonic in origins? Was it

46:52pre-Masonic? Um, do you have to be a Mason to be invited into the Aluku Cohen or what's maybe what's up with all that? Um, I'm pretty sure that you would need to you would need to have fulfilled a couple of requirements. One, you would have to be a man. Two, you'd have to be of age, right? Lawful age. And you'd have to be a Catholic first and foremost. And you would also have to be a Mason. Um because um these societies you could get in way more [ __ ] trouble back then than you

47:32can today. It's not about you know like I'm not I'm not [ __ ] on anybody, but you got to point out absurdity when you see it. And like to say that something is a secret and then have a Facebook page — is crazy. So it just doesn't make sense. So um back then it was secret like secret by the standards of old like we're denying this the existence of this entire thing and you know and you see vestages of that in Martinism it's part of the regalia it symbolizes something but you wear a mask

48:07you like when you when you come in you're not and all the people sitting around you interrogating you are wearing masks still to this day because they had to preserve you know uh their identity because well numerous reasons right there were a lot of political things going on French Revolution and you know Bonnie Prince Charlie the pretender you had so much going on in those couple hundred years of political overturn and turmoil that if you were a group of men found to be meeting in a basement

48:37talking about you know truth and and self- sovereignty and things like that you could be arrested and like you know uh thrown in um in the best evil for the rest of your life, you know, just throw away the key. So they there was a strict admonition to secrecy. Um, and so you wouldn't really have understood anything in the El Cohen uh unless you understood Masonic ritual. And that's true of most that's true of most re like I I went into my first Golden Dawn ritual and I'm like, "Boy, this is cool. I bet it means

49:15stuff." But once you once you become a mason and you've been doing that for a while, like I've only been a mason for a little over a year, but I mean I have participated in ritual almost every single, you know, like I'm moving through the chairs and and I'm I'm I'm giving I'm doing degree work regularly. So I'm I'm very I'm getting familiar with it. And um it's really that is the uh that's the template. Masonry, Masonic ritual is the template for everything that comes after

49:48it. You you you will have uh you won't really be able to understand what's going on unless you you have exposure to that stuff, particularly within Blue Lodge context. — So um yeah, I mean it was kind of its own thing, but the spirit behind it was we're going to rectify masonry. this is what masonry was supposed to be. And you see that poke through then in, you know, Jean Baptiste will Moses' rectified Scottish right, right? He he's saying, well, this is what the Scottish right

50:19was supposed to be. And and so you have all these people running around thinking that they have the key to what masonry is and how it can help. And nobody has any keys. I mean, if anyone did have a key to, I want to say the substantive ground of the, you know, uh, cosmogonical, uh, layout. I'd say it would be Pasquali. I don't know how he got that key, but he managed to convince a number of people. And he did this with not not with words, not with philosophy. He didn't he he couldn't write in French.

50:59He wrote phonetically. So that because it wasn't his first language. So you can imagine what a nightmare that has to be for people who who are trying to translate, you know, modern-day scholars, you know, people like uh Michael Osborne, Steuart Klen that are translating Stuart Kleen translated his letters. Michael Osborne um translated his letters and treatis on the reintegration. It's got to be a little bit of a nightmare, you know. uh trying to to uh translate in phonetic French from the 17th uh from the 1700s.

51:33— Sure. — So, it's not like he was convincing people with his words. Um as far as I understand, he's been explained, you know, some people have kind of like I think I've even been done it, but we've we've kind of there's been this idea that he's uh illiterate. He wasn't illiterate. He just he he didn't you French was not his primary language at least uh in p on paper. So what he was doing is he was and this is what the yellow cone is based on. It's based on proofs. You

52:05don't get to move to the next grade until you there's a list at least in the modern iterations. There's a list of symbols and sigils and things like that, names. And so your, you know, your chapter, your chapter master has this book and you perform these theoric rights by yourself and then you are supposed to receive these symbols. you go back, you write it in your journal, you show it to the chapter master, and um he tells you whether or not you can move on because this the symbol has

52:43to match what's what has already been received and is in that book. Um, so it's it's based on proofs and one of the things that we don't know exactly what Pasquali was doing, but we do have letters from Jean Baptiste Willer to Louis Claude to Sam Martan while they were his students saying, you know, Willer Mo is basically complaining, how come I don't get the results, the physical results, like the the tangibility in these magical operations that Pasquali that our teacher got and and and um Sam Martan

53:21basically tell tells him like look we can't lust after results. He was a very special man. He was very gifted. All we can do is keep keep doing the work. And eventually I think it was like I think I think Jean Baptiste will mo was maybe in his 40s or 50s before he he had that moment where like oh I did something. We're not really sure 100% what it was, whether there was some kind of manifestation, divisible appearance, or we don't know what it was, but apparently this was one of the ways by

53:49which Martina Depasali was convincing people like, "Look, I'm the real deal. I'm not some illusionist, and I'm not just some guy running around here um claiming to know the secrets of masonry." So, uh so that that's a very interesting thing. and and I uh I don't know what it is, but I can tell you that reading him is I couldn't even believe that uh you know, learning about Gnosticism first. I learned about Gnosticism first. You will typically see Gnostic little churches associated with

54:23Martinist groups. Now, they're not formally affiliated, but they're they're kind of like these sister organizations. Uh and and that's why really is because the core philosophy of it is extremely gnostic in in the traditional sense, right? And I'm talking about in you know late late antique gnosticism of the first few centuries C. I'm not talking about s Ionor or any kind of like punk rock ethos that you want to try and thrownosticism onto like we're talking about actual theological cosmological

54:57nasticism. — And so how about um origins or meaning of the name Aloo Cohen? Is there anything there as far as we can tell with, you know, like what is what does that does that mean anything in particular or where's that word come those words come from? — I don't know if it's a Semitic loan word that was actually adopted to French. Um cuz I don't know French, but I do know that in Hebrew Cohen means priest and elu I'm pretty sure that's got to be French. Uh means elect. So, Elu Cohen just means

55:34the elect priests. And elect means like you were you were invited into this and um you not just by me, you were chosen, you were chosen by something higher to do this. That at least is my interpretation of it, right? Because these would have been men of fate, providence, grace. — Um they would have believed in those things. They were, you know, they were Catholics doing magic. — Let me know if you can see my screen. — I see I think I see it, but I don't see anything on it. Oh, here we go. That's

56:16the banner. — Okay. So, is this the um symbol of the Elo Cohen or the Martin order or — No, no, no. That's that's the um that's the Elo Cohen symbol. That's you won't I it it depends um because some organizations I don't know I write I can only speak for my own um there are obviously translations that have been done by uh Stuart Mlen who also he translated the green book of the Lu Cohen um but within modern organizations I don't know if they include that on

57:01their letter head. — I I'm not really sure what they include that on, but you typically you would not see that in the Martinist order. Um that's that's for the the Lu Cohen. — Okay. And is there any particular I assume there's some meaning behind all of this. Um is there anything you could speak to about what it looks like? I don't know. Like a bunch of arrows and you know it's got like the Star of David in the middle. Um — yeah well I mean so right you've got

57:37you've got um there's a lot here. So the principle I'll say this much you see the hexog in the middle. — Mhm. — That is the principles that's the principal symbol of Martinism. — Okay. — Okay. Um that also is as we know right that's the that's Solomon's seal — of uh you know the greater and lesser key that is the seal of Solomon and Solomon was what it was a demon hunter — right that's those are the 72 demons of the the the Goetia

58:20— um Solomon according to lore or you know uh he imprisoned them and they did his bidding. Um so not only that but that is the symbol of reintegration. That right there the the hexog that is also for anyone who's familiar with the golden dawn that's on the banner of the east. That is also the symbol of of a Golden Dawn adept is that hexog and it looks — so that would be Go ahead. — Oh, well I don't know. I was going to say it looks like there might be seven stars surrounding that but it maybe I

59:01don't I can't tell if the top one or the bottom one are stars or not. Well to me I in that I see the these seven planetary spheres. I was thinking — right uh almost resembling an oraorus, right? The snake eating its tail, the tail eater. And then from there we have um we have banners and spears numbering in 12. So the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 signs of the zodiac. Um you've got ultimately the crown um at at the top, right? That's kind of I don't want to start interpolating too much,

59:48— but it's essentially this is this is, you know, this right here is kind of similar to also the the symbol of the rose, you know, in in in the Golden Dawn. — Um, you've got planetary. It's also it's also this resembling the this themeic model of the universe, right? You have you've got the seven planetary spheres um radiating outward from our uh geocentric position and then you have uh the the fixed the fear of the sphixed stars the firmament and that has what

1:00:32the the constellations of the zodiac on the the the outer sphere. Um so to me this is you got to remember that it was theurgic right as well as uh a grimoire style. So there's the incorporation of the shimme right the in there there's there's always things in these lines are are usually paired by sizzy right they have they have an upright and an inversion they have these reflections so you you've got there's 72 demons in the goatia uh of Solomon but there's 72 angels that form the you know the the holy the

1:01:21great divine name of God. So there there are rituals that incorporate that kind of stuff at least in the in in more modern iterations. Um but it's a symbol of reintegration and ultimately of the which incorporates which incorporates you know solommonic elements. I because it's all one thing right think about it. Yeah, — you got the grimoire tradition which comes out of what? The grimoire tradition comes out of the PGM and not exclusively the PGM but that tradition, right? Greco Egyptian

1:02:00conjuration. You know, they have the the crafting, consecration and wearing of the filactory. They have um similar tools and implements and they have the magical circle and they work within the same paradigm, right? the the the hebdomad of the seven planets, the you know the the the the uh constellations of the fixed sphere. It's all the same stuff. You just had Catholic priests doing it throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance and that's how that stuff got transmitted to what we call the grimoir tradition. But

1:02:35ultimately it came from that millu that we keep going back to that Alexandrian Egyptian Greek Roman synretatism. — Okay. So, I've got a question. So these 72 angels or the shemahesh are these so you said they comprise the name of God and are they synonymous with the name of God in terms of like uh yod vave in terms of the old testament what you would refer to as like the demi urge or these separate are like the more divine architect um above the demi urge or — well from my understanding of the shem

1:03:15Freshesh I believe it's I forget which chapter it is but it's it's verses 1920 and 21 forget which chapter um in H I think it's I think it's Exodus and essentially what the Hebrew cabalists did right it was the cabalists so these are people that are going based on uh they're going based on a mystical interpretation of this stuff. Um, they took those three lines. They noticed that they were comprised of the same amount of letters. Three times in a row, they had the same letters, the same

1:03:56amount, same number of letters. So, they stacked them one over the other, three lines. And then as they went down, they had three lettered names, right? Three lines, three letters to each name. And then you end up with 72 names, permutations, and you just add um you add like the divine suffix like L uh or e, you know, uh uh or or or l to the to the end of that. And you end up with um with the 72 names of the Shempherish which then correspond to uh the deans, right? Uh not the deans, I'm sorry, the

1:04:48the quinnes. — The deans are — So you have the 360 degrees of a circle. — That's what we're looking at for the zodiac. The zodiac. Um, if you're picturing like a natal chart, it's just a circle, but that circle is divided, right? That circle is meant to represent the ecliptic, which is the path of the sun, uh, or the apparent path of the sun because we know that the sun isn't orbiting the earth, although it is moving. Um, so that's what that circle represents and that that the ecliptic

1:05:29passes through the constellations of the zodiac. That's why we we have those constellations there and not other ones, right? There are lots of constellations, but the sun doesn't pass in front of them. So, so those zodiacal signs, those constellations are the ones that are comprised of the zodiac. It's just the ecliptic. — You separate that into 12, right? Traditionally, those So, how do what does that end up being? Right? If you separate 360° into 12 equal parts, you end up getting

1:06:05um 36 segments of 10° arcs. So each zodiacal uh sort of segment of this pi is comprised of 30° each one being you know you can look at it like three segments of 10 degrees. Those are the deans. You divide that then into um you know five divisions of five. You then have the coinances. Hence that that prefix queen quintis you know five. — Oh yes. and and that gives you that gives you um 72 segments and each one is ascribed to uh one of the angels of the Shem Hphesh. Each one of those each one of those

1:06:59angels is a particular aspect of the totality of of uh the creative god let's say the demiurge great architect of the universe right and so she had mentioned exorcism uh within the el cohen so I wanted to ask you about these pentacles are these associated somehow in relation with exorcisms within the Elo Cohen. Um, so as far as I am aware, I'm not I'm not sure, but I'll tell you this much. Um, one of the things that you use is a you have a pentacle which is essentially a filactory,

1:08:00right? It's a it's a it's a protective amulet. It it has an apotropeic usage which is one that is protective in terms of the spirit realms and of magic and luck circumstance things like this. But you the the hexogs are typically your your filactory. Um there are certain geometrical figures within a magical circle. Um I'm not certain about those ones that you just showed. Um I have used other ones but uh the thing is um you even have that like in the hermetic order of the golden dawn

1:08:44right a filactory is normally worn around the neck it's something you it's like an amulet — and so that that rests that rests on your breastplate and that's true of when you when you become superior in ku unknown superior that's kind of the third degree of martinism you get that martinis pentacle. Um, now you're not you're not supposed to take anything of a metallic nature into that into your circle of evocation. — So, you essentially have to create a new filactory. Typically, I think it was

1:09:16made out of wood or wax. Um, but you can make it out of any sturdy paper. And you would take that into the circle with you as a protective sort of amulet that you either wear or keep near you. And the same is true of the Golden Dawn because you wear sashes in the Golden Dawn and uh the the place on the Adept sash where the hexog is the the solar hexog right it's it's the hexog represents uh really the sun and because you've got each of the six angles right is attributed to to to six planets but that vacant space the

1:09:57blank space in in the center is where the sun occupies that position. So the six implies the seven. Um, and you also have that right over your heart where it would be hanging on the Golden Dawn's adept sash. And uh, yeah. So, I would some of those pentacles in certain iterations of that. I haven't used those ones, but again, I'm coming from, you know, there are I don't want to say too much here, but you got to be careful with this stuff. It's not it's not what we're talking about here is not as

1:10:41like open as the Golden Dawn or even Freemasonry. So, some of this stuff can't get talked about too much, but um I've not, — let's put it this way, I have not yet used those. — And are you able to decipher any of the information and what these are depicting? Are these symbols besides the like the Star of David kind of um imagery with the other stuff in here? I mean, I see like, you know, the crosses or whatever that are attached to the corners, but as far as those those other

1:11:20symbols, they're pretty unfamiliar to me. Are those anything that you're aware of? So the crosses and the hexogs are intimately familiar to me, but I'm I not understanding the other writings. But again, we're talking about now if these are if these are called from uh from Elo Cohen documents, we're talking about something that is reliant upon the individual receiving uh figures, sigils, and then having to report back. Okay. uh test what they got against what others got to have some

1:12:01kind of um well we would call it a proof. Uh now in a lot of everything that you're doing with filactory and grimoire stuff, all that stuff, there's a sacramentary portion to it in in the grimoire tradition. You're which is a making holy. You're making these items holy, right? By you're exercising them first as mundane material. You do the same thing with a talisman. That's what they are. These are talismanic weapons. um of a protective and you know one that will ultimately command forth and bind

1:12:43uh or or comand in general whatever you're calling but they have to become talismanic uh and in some forms of talisman and this is just kind of an interesting aside but in in some forms of talismanic magic particularly in like esoteric dowoism those symbols are like channeled they appear in the mind's eye or they appear as sort of like anetheric vision perhaps as a sparkle or something like that. Or they appear they they manifest a visible appearance in incense smoke which is a it's you know it's it's part of the

1:13:17whole grimoire synthe is is being able to en invisage things in the smoke um uh at least at first. So um and a lot of these things were channeled and they were private and their meanings were kept private. And so depending on the context of of of those sigils um they could be you know they are like likely uh received sigils rather than something that is inculcated. In other words, you might have to test your findings against that because that's what somebody else uh kind of got. and and so uh I those

1:13:59sigils are completely unfamiliar to me at this point. — Yeah. Now is there a difference between uh operations, rituals andor protocols or all of these along the same lines? Protocols are are components of rituals or operations that are formulaic. Rituals Ritual is something that is done uh as it implies with a certain type of repetition. The protocol of a ritual might be the ritual format. The the protocol of a ritual might be what you say and when you say it or what you wear, you know, or at what time. That's a big one. Mhm.

1:14:49— Um particularly in the in the El Cohen and in all magic of evocation, the chyros of the moment, the astrological protocols that you have that have to be and astronomical uh protocols that have to be adhered to. So those are, you know, and and even like like a prerequisite protocol and a lot of the Elohen stuff you there's certain fasting, there's abstinence from from sexual activity. uh you live like a lame monk if you're really doing it. If you're really working the system, it's

1:15:21extremely demanding for somebody who's like not not you know in any way being renumerated for their for their time financially. Um because even priests are right. So um so those are protocols. Rituals are typically these lengthy things that are meant to convey a sense of drama and the drama is one that is um inherently it contains uh symbolic or mythic images. So I guess in right I I like I said ear in another conversation I don't want to over psychize stuff or earlier in this conversation I don't

1:16:02want to over psychize stuff but I think a really good way to analogize it for modern people is to say that a ritual in some sense will typically embody an archetype um and enact that pattern forth in d in dramatic format and and typically maybe not in in in in lower level or very, you know, or even very popularized forms of the ritual. Maybe not there in those instances, but typically there is some kind of random component or ecstatic component that the ritual builds to. It's it's at the the apex of the

1:16:42climactic point. — Okay. Yeah. acts have come across was like the ritual or the operation of the equinoxes. Um the operation of the new moon. — Yeah, we're getting into it now. — Yeah, which I don't really know exactly what they entail, but they were just some things I was talking around. — An operation an operation I would say is different from a ritual. Um, ritual typically implies I mean they could be synonymous depending on who you're talking to, but I would say that the verbiage we're

1:17:20talking about is basically toggling between theurgic, grimoiric, and supplicatory, right? We're not talking about supplication anymore. Supplication is a huge motive. Uh it's a huge motivating factor behind ritual meaning giving thanks or worship tribute honor right when we say worship honor um um attempting to to uh um ask for something um or pray for something or receive guidance for something or to initiate somebody could be a ritual. It's lengthy. It's it has these these these

1:18:01particular uh repetitive um formulas. Now that it can that can be said about what I'm what I'm about to say about operations, but operations for me that's that's a way of referring to um like goedic — ritual essentially where it's an operation. I'm I'm conducting this with an amount of specificity. Uh I am following these things to a tea. I am writing about them later on in my in my quote unquote magical but quasi scientific journal, right? So I can look back at my results. And um I'm doing

1:18:44this for the purposes of education. I of evocation and and it's a little bit more serious. It's not supplication. I'm not asking a God to intervene. We're always working in the power of coming in the power of Christ, you know, like it's it's always that is that is what enables the grimoire magician. That is what enables the uh you know the Christian theist to do their work. It's not them, it's Christ working through them, you know. Uh, so I would say that in in in

1:19:19those sort of like grimoire things, I've seen more like this is this is an operation. Um, I'm doing a specific working. I'm working, right? That's what the is, God working. Whereas a ritual uh tends to be a little a little different. I'm I'm getting like, you know, like these images in my head of uh druids kind of circling around a fountain or something. That's way different than like uh a the like an El Cohen theorist like basically screaming in his oratory pointing his you know pointing a sword

1:19:51at a human skull. They're like very different things, you know. Definitely. Okay, so I found this one and this says underneath it theurgic diagram of the yellow coins. Uh this is from French National Library. Uh is any of this symbolism familiar to you? It looks like up in the right says enoke. Um, uh, we've got tetra grammaton within one of those circles. — Zoom in a little bit actually. Um, it does look familiar. This is essentially essentially what's on the floor is is uh it's the triple circle. It's it's it's

1:20:28sort of like the triple that's the magical circle right there. Um, uh, for certain operations. Now again some of these symbols uh again how how many of us are working with so you see how it says at the bottom an original document not everybody works from original documents. So that's, — you know, that's that's kind of like this this pushpull give and take thing where it's like the Elo Cohen died a long time ago. And some people fight me on that, but much of what we do is reconstructionist in a

1:21:09lot of the orders. You know, there are some I do know for a fact that there are some working the original documents, the original rituals, but um — uh — this one, — how much of that is how much of that is actually straight out of the lineage is is not sure to me, but I do know that that that is essentially the magical circle. There's just all these different accutramon. There's all these different uh symbols around it that that I'm assuming you get at different grades or

1:21:39or different levels. — Yeah, it's very interesting. And then there's this pentacle of Karen looks like and then stated to 16th — Kunrath. Okay. And it's got some Hebrew letters there in the middle. Can you Can you zoom in? I'm having a hard time seeing it on my computer above your heart. Yep. Found that one. It's kind of cool. No. No. — It's basically saying it's B TB oddsum. uh to you to you odd to to you to you to all which is probably my shitty Latin translation. And there's

1:22:32some there's an admon there's an admonition of of of something above or something above your heart. And then obviously we have the the um pentagramaton here. Yod shin vave. Um again kind of a triple circle the pentagram in the middle. This is I mean this is a it's a this is a filactory essentially. It's a it's a a a Christian uh theurgic filactory. Now that's essentially pentacle does not come from the like there's a difference between a pentacle and a pentacle right and and it's a very

1:23:16subtle difference pentacle is is pentacle is five pentacle comes from the Latin paculum which means hung by the neck — like hung around the neck — you know so basically like a collar or a chain so that when you see pantacle that automatically tells you that it's going to hang around your neck like a filactory, like a protective amulet or something to that effect. Whereas a pentacle just implies a five-pointed or a f, you know, a a figure with five angles. Okay. So, you mentioned earlier that you

1:23:53probably wouldn't want to jump right into the Elhu Cohen of things. Um, it wouldn't end well uh if you were to start out with that. Maybe you could — that's that's my opinion. — Yeah, you could elaborate a little bit on that. — Sure. I mean, so think about everything that we've been saying. Evocation, exorcism, uh kind of this this Christian conception, this Christian model of of demonic and angelic forces. So you put two and two together. What does an organization like the Eloo Cohen

1:24:35do, right? You have protocols. You got to make incense. You got to do incense blends. You know, you have to prepare like preparing weaponry. There's a sacramentary which is it is a ritual. It also is a protocol. You have to exercise the mundane materials with which you will be working in a sacred space and you have to you have to invoke the blessings of of of uh Christ and the absolute into that work and then you go forth and essentially right we're talking about a a grimoiresque theurgic tradition where you are

1:25:18essentially exercising uh demonic entities from uh the sphere of the earth really and so you want to jump into that after you like you know you went from buying crystals — can't even handle some of my dreams that I have right now — that's that's what I'm saying I mean like like even the initiations themselves are divine to or are designed to stir things up within you you will be well I mean take the doctrine the hermetic doctrine of the m microcosm in the macrocosm,

1:25:54right? Whatever's in here is out there and vice versa. If I'm calling to the four dark, let's say clific entities, if I am calling inverse entities into um my my triangle of art or my my magical oratory, what do you think is going to happen in the microcosm? It's going to have the there's going to be a resonance. that's going to call forth the dark [ __ ] in you. And if you're not prepared by several stages of purification of initiation, but I don't mean Christian moralizing, you know,

1:26:32like, well, you know, I don't say bad words anymore. That's not what I'm talking about. Purification, you know, it it's there's a purification of the energetic body. There's a purification of the mental diet. There's a purification of of of the astral components of your being, you know, where things are more integrated. you have more control. You exercise more discretion, more discipline over the totality of uh of of your you know the several levels of your being. That is you know this kind of

1:27:04process of reintegration. Um if you I mean when I'll put it this way, right? I don't think it's as cut and dry. I'm not sitting here as like, you know, uh, you know, um, Bobby Buché's mom from The Water Boy, like, you know, food balls for the devil. I I don't mean it like that. I don't mean it like that. But just as a maybe like a colloquialism, like something that's just sage wisdom, right? Like as as something poetic. When the devil talks to you, he speaks in your voice. Okay? If you're not,

1:27:43if you don't have the selfawareness to know when when it's not you, what do you think's going to happen? You know, what do you there? We are at such a severe disadvantage to anything on the other side of the veil. We can't see it. We don't know that what the parts of it that we can. Let's say you're a clairvoyant. I can see it. Well, how do you know that it's presenting its true form to you? You know what I'm saying? Like you you can't be all too ready to think I'm

1:28:14special. Pat myself on the [ __ ] back. It's like, yeah, okay, I can see [ __ ] too. That doesn't mean that it's that it's going to do what it says it's going to do. You know, there that's why there are protocols. That's why there are there's there's there's, you know, the the several several protocols within an operation, which is the calling forth, the binding, right? Steven Skinner's big on that. Don't ask the spirit to do anything until you have bound it. You

1:28:40have to bind it. That's a protocol. That's that's a that's something I have to follow. Um so if you don't have all these different trainings by way of initiation, how are you going to do any? It's going to it's going to overtake you. You will you will drown in the darkness because you're not only having to deal with the the darkened sphere of the material that is just happening as happening as a consequence of the times in which we live. But now you're calling forth.

1:29:14You're essentially putting a bullseye on your chest for all the the the the unseen things that are causing this [ __ ] to to happen, you know? um or at least instigating it and and uh exacerbating it, amplifying it. At the end of the day, the locus of control is within ourselves. But we have to be trained to become aware of that. And that involves being able to sense the multiple aspects of your constituent being. It's not just Sky sitting in the [ __ ] chair. There are levels of being that are all working

1:29:49simultaneously of which your petty ego and I don't mean you, you know, it's not an insult, but our petty egos are completely unaware from moment to moment. You know what I'm saying? So, it's like, how are you going to jump into goetic the calling forth like, you know, you want the exconjuration of the serpent as a [ __ ] neophite? You just bought a pair of red socks. You have no idea what like that's how you start. Crazy. You know, it's crazy. It's It's a [ __ ] death sentence.

1:30:17— I agree 100%. And I think it's it's kind of along these lines like it's funny cuz I hear people every now and then make these comments about certain orders and their secrecy and this protective these protective layers of I mean, you know, they they might be like, well, this information should be available for everybody or everybody should have access to it or blah blah blah. And I'm like, I think these layers are obviously built into these systems for a reason because of the exact thing that you're

1:30:48speaking to in terms of moving into the inner orders and whatnot and being able to prepare yourself. And I see it more as a some of these orders with as as somewhat of a privilege to be uh a part of in terms of that you're being educated in a coherent manner in in order to uh go about engaging some of these things in a sophisticated manner versus just [ __ ] hoping for the best and doing some sloppy uh entering into these worlds in some kind of sloppy manner where you can get yourself um into some bad situations. So

1:31:33I always I don't always but I I think that's an important thing to draw attention and and touch on for people that the reason that a lot of I think I don't know I'm I'm speculating and assuming that a a big reason why a lot of these orders have these layers of secrecy quote unquote within them is not because they're hoarding information that they don't want to get out there but it's more so in regard to a protective mechanism. Um I don't know maybe you can give your thoughts or your

1:32:09take on that. — Yeah. Yeah. Everybody wants to everything everybody wants to go through everything half [ __ ] cocked. That's the big issue because it's nobody's buying in to the reality behind this stuff. It's all this very It's this this silent conspiracy of cosplay where I This is what I'm interested in. Okay. Well, you could be interested in in in driving a [ __ ] bulldozer and you can go on the internet and you can learn all about that. But no [ __ ] in their right mind is going to give you

1:32:46the keys and let you go and do that with little to no training. selfucate — because you think because you see because somebody else who's studied for [ __ ] 10 years and has had that job and gone through the certifications and have and has dealt with the the and has had to improvise through the problems and the challenges that have been uh foisted in front of them just by the operation. They might make it look easy. Yes. But you have to earn [ __ ] in this life. Okay? That is a natural law. You

1:33:18have to earn things. So, you know, that's why the yellow cone is graded the way it is. It's, you know, it's not it's not like these other magical orders. I like to com like the Golden Dawn's great. You get out of your ritual space. You feel like a spiritual scientist. The Elo Cohen is more like, you know, you feel like you're at war and you're behind enemy lines alone sometimes. you know, it's it's not it's not the same this happy golucky uh you know, let's let's see if I can

1:33:48make uh you know, uh a zazil manifest and uh so I can you know, afford a new car or gas this week. It's not it's it's just not that. You're you're intentionally engaging with dark things and you know they are way [ __ ] better at this stuff than you are. So, um, the thing is people want to psychologize this stuff. Well, it's just the dark stuff in me. Oh, yeah, it is. But it's also the dark stuff out there because they're connected and there is an objective existence to these things. And if you

1:34:24haven't experienced that, then I'm sorry. And you either need to work more diligently so that you can perceive these things and open your mind. Therefore, granting yourself that window of opportunity, perceptive opportunity to experience that stuff or like [ __ ] or get off the pot. Believe or don't. But you, you know, don't come into this [ __ ] trying to test it out and become a believer, you know, do something else. There are plenty of other routes to go, you know. um you you you will eventually

1:34:55find if you do this long enough, right? This is why this is what we all say who have been doing this for many years very seriously. It is there is a dangerous component especially to [ __ ] like El Cohen. You want to go dick around with the Lima, go ahead. But particularly with things like the Luc Cohen and Goedic magic, there is a real risk. Um and that's why there are protocols. But you if you look at the Abraham melon, right? That's that's apparently the quint quintessential, you know, you talk about

1:35:32Solomon, right? Solomonic magic. He was king of Israel. He was the wisest man in all the land. Okay. Are you the wisest man in all the land? Are you the king of Are you even the king of yourself? Can you do these things? Go ahead. you know, like but don't say that we didn't warn you. It's not this this game playing, you know, thing where we all kind of have talked ourselves into this uh, you know, um, egregoric uh, delusion. This [ __ ] is real. You will see it if you if you have eyes to

1:36:10see it. Otherwise, it will destroy you and you just won't be able to tell what's going on. Your life will spiral out of control. Now whether that takes 10 days or 10 years, who knows? — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm I'm like for me it's like why would you even want to like I would have no interest in trying to go fly an airplane with no training or proper preparation. You know, I I would want to go to a pilot who has been flying for years. You know, I want I want an adept at his or her craft that

1:36:44can can have the experience behind them and success with whatever it is they're doing, whether it's just some mundane day-to-day craft or operating a machinery or a vehicle or whatever it is. And I think that people just totally missed that point. So, I just think that's very important that we touched on that. Um, are there any are there other things that you would like to touch on in regards to that Elhu Cohen before we close this out? — Yeah, I think the one connection is that

1:37:18I want to make that I wanted to make is that uh um so at a certain point Louis Claude de San Martan says can't we just can't we do an interior rectification? Do we need all this accutramon? Do we need to be dealing with dark spirits? Do we need the swords? Do we need this the circles and the floorcloths and the candles on the floor? You know, does that need to happen? And he decides he's not going to partake in in this even though he's been trained and it's the basis of his philosophy. He's learned a

1:37:55tremendous about amount about himself, about the the way that the world works, magical operations. He goes he essentially pulls out of the Cohen and um you know starts writing as the unknown philosopher and his way is the way of the heart. It's more devotional. It's more mystic mystical um and and and focuses less on all the exterior issues and goes really really hard with the interior. And I think that's also why they're really really good counterparts, right? You have to it's, you know,

1:38:35it's not visit the exterior of the heavens, it's visit the interior of the earth and you there rectifying you will find the hidden stone which is true medicine. Right? And and that that is the way the way of the heart is the way of the Christ. And there's really there's very little danger there. and and there are there's just more than one way to skin the cat and and do good in the world. And I think personally my own preference is just that my own preference is that really by

1:39:10by rectifying your sphere of sensation, your microcosm, you will change the world, you know, but that is going to require that you have the same courage that the grimoire magician, the same skill, um the same discipline, the same dedication, um and and willingness to be guided by others who know um and follow their protocols. You have to possess all the same skills. It's just whether or not it's just the path in or the path out, you know, and and the path inward is um in many ways the more severe one.

1:39:51Amen. I hope this was very informative and perhaps sobering for people. It definitely was a big one for me. And so with that, uh, we will conclude another episode of the Atherica podcast. This was an important one for sure. Um, if anybody wants to find more on the Etherica podcast, please check out the Patreon at patreon.com/etherica. And for myself, check out philosophicalminds podcast. And how about for you, Ike? YouTube.com/arcanum. A r cvm. And then uh usually in the about section of any video, whether it's a podcast or

1:40:33one of the presentation style lectures that I put together on astrology, tarot, ritual, all that jazz, uh you will be able to find an email, my Instagram, and that stuff. But go check out the videos and um keep enjoying the Etherica podcast with us. This is a lot of fun. — Absolutely. All right. Until next time.