Neoplatonism, Theurgy, Christian Mysticism & the Philosopher-Magician

18:20it it is not evil in and of itself. It just possesses no life, no light. And uh but but um it is kind of vivified by Numa spirit and um what can happen there in the soul's downward trajectory is that it gets stuck because this this pure you know aspect formerly of this transcendent hypoatic reality is now subjecting itself to the like orastic ic um illusion of multiplicity. Uh and so it becomes it what what what Platinus says is that the soul's main problem is that it could have dove down and then

19:09come just quickly turned back but it didn't. It went all the way down and now the main issue is to what end does the soul become invested in matter? you know, is it see in matter and then seeking matter for its own ends? Um because that will make the soul stuck. Uh and that's the myth of Pphanie and Hades right there. You know, it's exactly what the [ __ ] it is. Um and and that's his his idea. But his his thing is that the the the truest portion of the constituent of of the being is

19:47that you know the the soul in its in its diving downward so to speak is more of this kind of fantasmagoric um trans illusion. It's not actually fully down here. There's another part of the soul, right, which is the new the the noose because it's it's one thing, three aspects of one thing. The noose remains elevated and that's evident in the fact that we can go inward and contemplate these abstract things and have these sort of out-of- body experiences and in our minds experience

20:24what people would call magic, what people would call visions. Our mind can still do that even if our body is in this room. And so we are still connected. We have a divine connection by way of uh sympathia. Our our sympathy our our mind our personal noose is d still directly in some way tied to the the hypoatic news. And so he says if we retreat and kind of that rope that connects us, if we climb that rope and we retreat from the illusions and enticements of matter and and focus on those mental sort of connections with the the divine

21:04noose, then we can experience henosis, union with the divine, then we can become a species of enlightened and then we can kind of evolve beyond this. And he calls that theoria which means divine contemplation. Whereas amlus said I'm no we have to use the matter because there's numa in the matter that there are the the platonic forms the ideals you know perfection is in matter even if matter can only vaguely dimly express it because it's constantly changing and falling apart which means it's not real and it's not

21:40perfect but it's there it still possesses some some influence from perfection and so and and and some species of of numa of spirit And so we have to use matter to climb back up. And that's the urgy. — Wow. That is amazing. Um it kind of reminds me a lot of like the shattered vessels things or the trap sparks that need to be liberated and like — Yes. 100 100,000%. And that's exactly why I'm constantly saying Cabala is not inherently Hebrew. Cabala was was a product of helanized Judaism of the

22:17first centuries BCE in Alexandria. We have the Septuagen translation from around then we have the Merka which is Jewish the that's exactly what it is right um the the the rabbis the mystics going into vision you know in the chariot and starting here and going up towards the Agdoad right they're passing the seven planetary spheres and at each one is an archon that's trying to stop them and then you have to keep going until you pass beyond the realm of the agdoad into the unknown. It's [ __ ]

22:57Platonism. — Damn. — Cabala is the same thing. Laurianic Cabala is the Ogdoad. It's the same concepts. That's the whole thing. Like this is why I get ang like frustrated with with this scholastic academic. They can't see the forest for the trees. There's something very very like concretely real here that is being transmitted. It's one [ __ ] thing wearing different clothes — 100%. Damn. And it and it's also a lot about I mean it reminds me too of like

23:31the divine contemplation thing in regards to all this kind of reminds me a lot of similar to David Heheim Smith's sort of conception of things and how he talks about a lot of this stuff as well which is very cobbalistic and everything. — That's what he Well, that's the whole thing. That's what he's doing. — Yeah. — Right. his his his esoteric cartgraphy is a method of h him staying in the news and and not only that but my you know my my first conversation with David I

23:59noticed over his right shoulder I was like is that a bust of Socrates he's like I love that you noticed that so yeah I mean it's that was the bulk of our conversation was talking about how you know the neoplatanists um he thinks they were they were non-theists I don't necessarily agree with that, but or at least he takes the position that he's a non-theist. — Mhm. — Uh but anyway, it's it's just really interesting that he he fully of course he does. He's [ __ ] brilliant. If

24:33anything, it's it's incredible that that my monkey mind has has pulled itself up by the bootstraps. But it was just really really cool to see uh that you know he had a bust of Socrates and we right away we started talking about neoplatanism and it's all it's the same language everything is you can transpose everything. You can transpose everything. — Damn. All right. So Proalis I don't I don't really have a whole lot on Prois. So maybe you could fill in the gaps with

25:00him um and his life and what we know about him. — Brilliant. — He's brilliant. He was one of I think one of the last scholars of the Platonic Academy. He actually moved back to Athens to run the academy there. But his thing Proglas was the great synthesizer of the entire Platonic tradition from Plato to uh to to Amunius to Plutarch to uh you know the middle platonist to um to the neoplatonist the amus platinus. He synthesized all of it into one hole and it was uh what he did his commentaries

25:42on the parmenities um his uh uh you know um Platonic theology that he put together. If you want to understand neoplatanism and Plato, you have to read Proclas because he had the he was able to have hindsight. He came after all of them. He came in like the the sixth century. they're all dead, you know, and had contributed their work. Uh, so he was able to look back, synthesize all of it. And I I believe it was him. But when he arrived at the Platonic Academy in Athens, there was no more like

26:17philosophical discourse. There was no more theoria. Um, it was all the become so popular that he had to like say, "Okay, I have to reintroduce the philosophical stuff to these people." Um, so, um, he was able to really really blend things in an amazing way. If you want, if you really want to have a very firm understand, but it's dense, right? It's crazy. He's he's got these insane commentaries are like this thick, you know? So, um, but yeah, he also taught, uh, I don't know if he taught him

26:54one-on-one or if it was kind of like that, you know, I consider Dion Fortune a teacher to me and I visited her grave and everything, but I never met her, you know, so I don't know if it was that kind of thing, but apparently uh, Pseudo Dionicius the Aropagite um, the one who introduced all of the hierarchies, you know, um, into Christianity. that we get that we use in magic really um and this this kind of chain of being he uh he really introduced that he was a student of proan neoplatanism he

27:30basically took prolis and put it in Christianity which is which is really interesting so you know you get uh the choir of angels and the cherubim and and and saraphim and all that stuff that they go through in the in the liturgy — um like Catholic liturgy, but uh you know there's a lot that can be said. Um the thing is if you want to start talking about um the Platonic the stuff that's in the the his commentaries, you got to be like a [ __ ] Platonic scholar, you know? Um so you got to know

28:03stuff about the diamond, you got to know stuff about the Theodia, Theodoria, you've got to know all this crazy sort of stuff from the Platonic dialogues in order to really start engaging with in a meaningful way Proist. So obviously I'm saying if you want to understand platonism go read proclus but I don't mean that as like a platonism for dummies. You need to really know your [ __ ] and then it'll all kind of he puts a nice ribbon up. — Yeah. I think I was telling you a little

28:31while ago I'm starting to see so much of why you talk about all the things that you talk about because it's like these are where all the dots start connecting everything. It's just [ __ ] blowing my mind. And and here's the thing, dude. It's like I didn't I did not It's not I did not go out there methodically and look for this stuff. It was a series of [ __ ] synchronicities that brought me exactly to where I needed to be. I did not go chasing after this stuff, you know? I met people. I randomly found

29:03passages. Books fell into my hands. When I was looking for the next thing, it would just [ __ ] appear, you know? know it's it's not even like I'm I'm like intentionally questing to do this, which which is pretty amazing, you know, because it's it really is all here. It's really it's really all here. And for Western people, you know, um because I I don't I don't give a [ __ ] what's nice to say. I care about the truth. — Yeah. And the truth is that we have

29:38differences, you know, and they're significant, meaningful, and important. Um, and the way that we cognize and interpret and and and synthesize information, um, is you are much more likely to fully understand this one thing, this one trajectory. Right? We're talking about it the core and the naked truth underneath the different clothing. To really understand it in a western paradigm, you have to understand Plato and you have to understand the Platonic tradition. That's how you get there and then

30:15everything else just [ __ ] clicks. — Yeah. Damn. All right. So, Pfurery of Tire. Uh, so Perfery, you he like you mentioned, he wrote a piece called Against the Christians. Um, I guess it was banned by Constantine. I wonder what the general consensus and points that he addressed in this work were. Have you read it? Like what what was the beef that he had that with pissed Constantine off so much that he banned this work? — Um, well, the thing is, well, Constantine is weird. Constantine only knows politics.

31:00Constantine don't know religion. — Constantine's mother was the religious one. She was the Christian or at least that's that's the official, you know, erline. But Constantine knew politics. He was a deathbed conversion. He never converted to a Christian until he was until he was laying dead. — Oh, wow. Okay. — Uh yeah, he never did. But he saw the writing on the wall. Um, and his whole goal was to Christianize the empire, but really what ends up happening is

31:33he ends up preserving Rome. He creates this lifeboat for Roman hegemony. Um, and it becomes, you know, uh, the Vatican. it becomes the papacy, becomes the the next it's like a snake, you know, Constantine was like, "Okay, it's time to shed the skin." Um, and cuz that's when everything starts really getting murky. Uh, because it's, you know, you can't, it's like Christ said, you cannot serve God in mammon. You cannot serve God in money. You cannot have two masters. And

32:16it's like Christianity went [ __ ] CocaCola, you know? They got they got like imperial funding, you know, like and it just everything swiftly went downhill. Um that's the whole thing, you know, the Christian the Christian path is to suffer. You're better off [ __ ] martyring Christianity. It was better when they were getting fed to the lions 100 years before. Um not be I'm not saying that because I I have any animosity to those people. That's a horrible death to die, but I mean it's it's really true. You

32:49either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself be become the enemy, right? That quote from uh the Batman movie. But it it's very true. I see it constantly actually inaction happening and that's exactly what happened with Christianity. Um and I think it's that point. So it would have been a highly political move for for Constantine to just silence his opponents. Look, we're seeing it right now. You see it with [ __ ] Biden. We see it with with everybody. You know, it's like, I'm just g I'm just gonna

33:20shadowban you. I'm you're not allowed to say that. You're getting a fine. We're we're we're putting a mask on you. We're putting a mask on your [ __ ] We're going to seal you up and dump you in the [ __ ] ocean. You know, it's the same just because it's like you're not saying what I what I want people to hear. — Yeah. — That's it. That's it. be and the the main thing is that you know poor fur and I don't reduce everybody to those

33:44kinds of politics. I truly don't I truly believe that most people back then believed I think that Game of Thrones was one of the worst [ __ ] things for our mental diet that has ever happened. You know this this retrofitting of our own shitty personalities, our own cynical ethos on on on prior times. We have no [ __ ] clue that that was the case. But the thing is, it's comforting because it makes us feel like, well, we're only human, like the lowest iteration of human. We're almost [ __ ]

34:15monkeys at this point. But um but but the but you know, the thing is in Constantine, I've studied him greatly. He's extremely interesting and I do find him I do find plenty of evidence uh that convinces me that he was one of these personages. Um you know the biggest tip of the hat for me was that he never converted to Christianity. You know he he's had all this [ __ ] and he stayed a [ __ ] pagan. Um that's I mean it's a central doctrine is baptism, you know, and rights of of of those rights of

34:52Christian initiation and stuff like that. So, so it's um you know the man himself was baptized Christ. So it's that to me is is suspicious. So I I think that that would be it. Um but the thing is that Pfury didn't have anything necessarily to say I think too badly about about Christ's teachings as as the gospels would have um I mean the the gospels I'm pretty sure canonical uh scripture had not been solidified at that point. But either way, there were teachings of the Christ. I don't think

35:25Pfury railed against those. Um, if I remember correctly, Porefrey was criticizing Christians, the the burgeoning Christian community, — um, really. And, and I mean that that's that comes with being a philosopher is just thinking everybody else is dumb, — you know? I mean, listen to me, you know? Not not a great way to be. not a great way to be but it it is it is kind of endemic to the to the the type of of person that becomes a philosopher. Uh so so I think I think that had a lot to do

35:59with it. Porfury was not somebody that I feel personally I don't feel like he had a very strong I think he was much more of an intellectual than a true philosopher. I think a true philosopher like Platinus and and and and Plato um Pythagoras Socrates they're more concerned with you know I would say their own comportment the way their lifestyle the way they live their life um and and transcendental realities. Now, Porfury was very concerned with, you know, the method, you know, the how, okay, if we're going

36:48to transcend, how does what does that look like? Um, and I think that in a certain sense, you know, we can pigeon hole these things. I think Yamicus was more on the point uh by saying there is some theory but at a certain point that [ __ ] goes out the window along with everything else you know because you can't in order to trans this realm is is based on like logisticon reason uh or logic law it has its laws. Now you can you can learn everything there is to know about them but you'll still be

37:25here. So if you want to transcend this thing, you have to let go of those things. That can't be your main concern at a certain point. At a certain point, like you have to have completely transational experiences. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah. And I would say like I have a lot of issues myself with more mainstream kind of Christian societies and behavior and character and so on, but I still consider myself a Christian. You know, like like you said, many other Christians would argue with me and maybe tell me I'm not Christian

38:03according to their standards because I'm, you know, interested in studying other books outside of their canon or whatever it is. But so I don't know maybe it's something similar along those lines but — um so Amblicus uh who has become so so interesting for me. Uh so Ambocus was a Syrian biographer of Pythagoras a theist descendant from the house of Simperis a Roman client dynasty of Arab priest kings. Uh this Roman client dynasty of Syrian priest kings was known to have ruled by 46 BC from Arathusa and later

38:49from ASA Syria until between 72 and 78 or 79 or at the least or at the latest the reign of Emperor Antonius P pious 138 to 161. Uh so ASA was recorded by Herodian to have been the 3 century center of a worship of the ancient pagan god Alleg allegalis which was a son and mountain god I guess was considered — like the lord of ball. — So amlus was a descendant of this dynasty of priest kings. So I guess there was like Ayamblicus I son of uh Samusamis I and brother of Alexander Alexander who

39:46reigned 48 BC to 31 BC. Then later on there was I the son of Aiamus I who reigned 20 BC to 14. Then later on there was Ayamblicus um the 3rd century novelist or yeah then I amus thenus the 3rd century neoplatonist. Oh, and then at the very earliest part of the whole family tree before Samsa the first, there I guess was like the OG amlacus that goes like up to the very top of the tree. So that was pretty [ __ ] interesting to me just like all of the different ones. Then it, you know, it skips it goes to this um

40:36what was the name of that guy? Uh Samaramis. But then above him it's I amus again and it doesn't go any farther than that. So I just thought that was like fascinating and I find his name just really interesting too like the beginning being I am. I don't know if there's anything to that but um yeah um maybe what what are your thoughts on I amus and maybe talk a little bit about him as there's a lot to talk about. — Yeah. Yeah. So, he's basically where we get our modern uh

41:09theology from this whole idea. Everybody's talking about it and giving me [ __ ] nosebleleeds. It's just like, you know, I myself too, you know. Um — yeah, — it's just such a trending thing in our communities, but it's like I don't know. It's, you know, we're I feel like a lot of a lot of us are putting the cart before the horse again with it, but um bound to happen. It's okay. But, uh he really hairy, you know, there's this weird thing and we've spoken about

41:49before. He writes this document uh that we call on the mysteries or uh deidius in Latin but it's it's on the mysteries of the Egyptians called etc. Um and he's basically uh he writes as um this priest Abon uh this Egyptian priest Abon um in response to Pfery the philosopher writing this kind of um this condescending sort of like he's trying to have like a gotcha moment where he's he's like asking He's trying to make the ritual sort of seem ridiculous in a lot of these way.

42:38Now I I have heard from several people that um you know this was a way of of sort of teaching the question would the teacher would would ask you questions and then you'd kind of write a formal reputation. It's kind of like defending your thesis. U I've heard that. I'm not convinced. Um, the thing is too, I mean, it's like how do we I'm sure there are ways I'm sure there are several people who could who could um who could who could show me why, but you know, a lot of the times it's like how

43:13do we even know for like a 100% that amicus was the winner? He didn't put his name on the [ __ ] thing. It's signed Abama, the priest Abama. Um, and so that's really interesting to me. But the, you know, current scholarship suggests that it was Yamlus who uh who wrote who wrote on the mysteries and everybody's basically 110% certain about that. I don't give a [ __ ] who wrote it. Um, it's uh the document itself is fairly remarkable, but very very dense, very tur and very obscure. It's filled with a

43:47lot of jargon. A lot of that also has to do with Thomas Taylor's translations, the words that he used. He spoke an archaic form of English to us today. And uh he seemed to be the kind of guy who kind of maybe liked the smell of his own gas. I don't know. He just seemed like it was very very pompous, like very, you know, like an intellectual. Uh it's like even look I understand that you translated this like several centuries ago but you definitely could have chosen simpler words you know there's no excuse

44:19here but uh it's it's it's it's a very interesting document it delineates and defends and kind of brings the point home about why the is necessary and the embodiment of the soul and the reintroduction of these ancient Egyptian and Calan rights back into you know western uh spiritual practice basically saying like you know you're you're [ __ ] thinking too much like use use the mind in so far as as it can bring you to to do this work but you know and and but I mean he himself he

44:58had a tremendous sort of hold on these things in a very philosophical systematic way But the ultimate goal here, you know, he was trying to defend ritual. They were trying to, you know, Platinus um Pfury, it's not that they were against all kinds of ritual because ritual permeated society, you know, at that point. You go and you give offerings, you do this, you do that, you do the other thing. But um in terms of like heosis and and ascension, uh I mean, Platinus is reported to have said, "I won't go to the gods. The gods have

45:32to come to me." Um whereas it was the opposite in poor in in in Yamakus' system. You go to the gods or at least you call to them and you kind of meet them halfway. But uh and again we're using that spatial um location and that trajectory. We're using it as an analogy. It doesn't really think he's like hopping in a spaceship and going to Mars. But um — but it's uh the thing about it is that there is he doesn't really give us much in in terms of actual technique. There's a ton of

46:07philosophy. There's a ton of theory, but we don't have a lot of technique. Um but there is some some brilliant uh really brilliant stuff in there. Beautiful, inspiring. Um, the thing is that you're not likely to get it uh on your first couple of reads of the Taylor Translation. What I recommend for anybody who wants to understand the is to read Dr. Gregory Shaw's theology in the soul. — That will definitely help you um understand he breaks the terms down and relates how they relate to one another

46:41and um really synthesizes it in a way that's understandable and and really I mean You could probably use that book to as a as a starting point to make your own theoric practice. — And do do we know anything about the etm etmology of the name? — I think so. Yeah. But you also got to understand like you know Germanic and stuff like that from which English is is is called is an evolution um didn't exist. So I am wouldn't would it wouldn't have any bearing on what we believe I I am would baby those

47:23words those words didn't exist yet. — Yeah. So like say biblically like you know Moses in the burning bush the bush replies I am that I am. — Yeah. But he does it in Hebrew. — Right. That's what I was going to say. — He doesn't do it in English. He says uh — okay that's what I was going to see. A yeah, that would be the name for that. — Yeah. — Um, sweet. Okay, then. Um, so all right. After all this being said, what what is your opinion

47:56about what constitutes a philosophical mind? — Um, curiosity. Uh, I would say this. I would say the underlying thing is what what we would call in the Platonic tradition aeros. Um aeros not people get the wrong idea. They think they hear aeros and they think like a romantic or a sexual love. — Um there in a philosophical context aeros is desire. Um you desire God the in a similar way to the way that you desire a lover. And what is the in inevitable consequence of of desiring your lover? Unity with them.

48:43Um and so that aeros is uh a very intense, unshakable, unstoppable, extremely passionate desire and love, a love-based desire for union with your creator. That's the why. But philosophers choose to act on that impetus uh with their minds. Not everybody has to do that. Some people are just right. There's bakti. There's just pure devotion. That don't work for me. I've done it. Um, and uh, I've had some some species of success, but it's not taken me where where, you know, my trajectory needs to

49:38go right now. Um, and I think that that is what a philosopher is that, right? It's it's it's hardwired into the word filia, love, right? Sophia's wisdom obviously, but it's a love of wisdom. It's not a [ __ ] interest in wisdom. It's not a curiosity. It's a love. It's a burning love. You have to love this [ __ ] You have to be obsessed with it the way that you're obsessed with your, you know, your your your romantic part. Um, beyond that, it pales in comparison. That's just that's

50:10just the the best analogy we can use. But, uh, it's definitely of a a a quality which is beyond your ability to deny it. You cannot say no. You have no [ __ ] choice. It's just about okay how do I go about doing this and for me uh the most sustainable the most tenable and the most uh impactful not just for myself but for other people. Um right because uh uh Michael Osborne said to me uh recently also it was brilliant. I wanted to get up and just clap for him. Uh quietism does not benefit

50:51other people's lives for the good. Um so philosophy uh you will get better and the people that you are having discourse with will get better. So your sphere of influence for the positive for the good is much wider um than just uh doing yoga. — Yeah. And then so if we look at philosophy and what that love of wisdom births, if we look at like the patterns with a lot of these individuals that we've been discussing, I mean their character, they're in general very humble, um very anti-yrannical, very

51:41they have a lot of integrity. Um, so yeah, I'm just trying to like kind of pinpoint a lot of the characteristics that come out of these sort of individuals. And then — you know, I I don't I don't know that I agree with humility. — No, I don't know that that I agree at all with humility because um again, I'm going to go back to our journal analogy before. How many people of you listening could commit to writing in your journal one page every day? — I don't think it's a lot of you. And I

52:17I'm not I'm not trying to be I'm not I'm really not trying to be a dick. There are some months where I can't do it. I don't think it's a lot of you. Now, think about having written like 30 [ __ ] dialogues. Written it not typed. It's not dictated. You wrote that. — Yeah. and it's filled with your philosophy that you've spent years arguing with people over. You've got to um there there's got to be a level of whatever the opposite of humility is

52:48there, you know. Um uh — well, could we say maybe like — I would sorry I I would say I would say more in like think about it, right? Socrates, he sat in the square and he told everybody they were [ __ ] wrong. And he went and he showed them step by step that they were wrong. And he was, if you read those dialogues, it's [ __ ] great. It's awesome. I forget every time when I go back and I'm in the middle of a dialogue, I'm like, it's like watching reality television. Like, this is

53:16uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable. He is so [ __ ] rude and snide and he's just ripping into this person and he's moody and he flies off the [ __ ] handle constantly. He says stuff where like everybody in the room is like, "Socrates, relax, relax." Like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Fuck you." You know, he's just flying off the handle. It's amazing. It's amazing to read and to to picture in the mind's eye. That's not a humble person. But

53:42the, you know, in the traditional way that we think about it, ultimately he's doing a kindness. — Um, but what he is humble to, he subordinates himself to is his diamond, — right? — Is his is God. — Humility to God ultimately, you know, and service to man. — I'm not gonna I'm not going to bow before you. I'm I'm not a pacifist. No, nobody Jesus wasn't a pacifist. He went to the cross willingly because it was part of the plan. But he also whipped

54:15the money lenders, the money changers, not a pacifist. You know, he says specifically, I came to bring a sword, not peace. So, um, you know, I'm and I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm I'm just trying to reintroduce this perspective to people that like nobody who ever did anything really that great was what really truly embodied what we in a modern sense think of as humility. — Yeah, that makes total sense. So we could say maybe a dedication and a following of their higher genius. Like a

54:51like an unyielding pursuit and persistence in regard to truth. Maybe like a tough love. Like love in the sense of dedication to the good at at the expense of anybody's feelings regardless of — and most and most especially at the expense of your own. — Yeah. you know, it's, you know, you don't want to who who wants to argue with people, you know. — Yeah. Um, so, okay. So, I don't know. I may have asked you this before, but you you always ask your guests on your

55:29podcast, so I want to ask this for you and the context of this conversation. What is magic or how do you experience it? Um, well, I would say magic is the partially subjective and partially objective result of a specific outcome. that was uh affected by non-physical or at least non non-logical, non material, non empirical. It doesn't follow the the laws of physics. It's not beholdened to I push the domino, the domino falls down, it hits the other do. It's not that. You can't say, "Okay,

56:39here's where it started and here's how how it was affected." You cannot. You can't. We've been trying to do it, but it it doesn't work. You're never going to pigeon hole. It's bigger than you. Um I don't care if you're [ __ ] a grippa. You do your best. It's great. We have systems. You're never going to you're never going to denute it. it's just not going to happen. But it's it's an outcome that that happened almost despite itself

57:08that was uh a set intention. Other words, I wanted this thing to happen. Rather than go and do all the physical things to make that happen, I did a ritual in my room and seemingly a causally the thing that I wanted to happen happened. That's um one form of I would say manifestation magic. The underlying causes or I would say the reason that that can happen is a law that we don't understand. Um it's not forthcoming. It it does not readily reveal itself to us. But whatever it is is the same reason that

57:57alchemical changes can happen, spiritual growth can happen, uh the miraculous can happen. So really it's this I would say hidden quality um to reality of all levels that is inexplicable and exists in everything um and can be utilized for different for different intentions. Right? The goetic magician makes [ __ ] contracts with dark entities to obtain, I don't know, love, a new car, sense of self-respect. Ironically, um, the the just uh attempts a trajectory of spiritual evolution. Um, but they're using the same laws. They're

58:44using the same principles. — All right. Beautiful. So, we should probably roll the rest into another podcast because we've got a lot to cover still and this was pretty amazing. But before we do, I want to address one of our Patreons questions and then I'll end with like a couple closing questions. But I'll go ahead and I'll ask a question. She asks, "Is there such thing as theurgic astrology? Do we have any historical evidence of rituals or esoteric practices existing

59:23where someone would be able to influence by way of ritual work or pathworking challenging placements or transits? Basically using your birth chart as a working map. Side note, this is where I'm hope this is where I'm hoping what I'm understanding the correctly. The equal god working. Um so theology actually and its beginning stages has to be predicated on astrology absolutely has to be um at the beginning stages right the goal is to transcend causal mechanism and if we're looking at in the

1:00:07traditional neoplatonic sense the structure and position of the universe relative to itself and the bodies which comprise it um as causal um as influential. Then we want to find the best sort of arrangement of those things to kind of have this upward trajectory outward. It's kind of like the stairs in Harry Potter that are always moving. I don't know if you're a fan, but like when they're trying to get to their dorm room or get places, they're always going up these [ __ ] stairs, but the stairs

1:00:44just move. It's like an MC Cher painting. Um, it's astrology is basically waiting till those stairs are aligned so that you can just [ __ ] fly up, you know, like that. I mean, that's a pretty silly analogy, but that's kind of it. Now, the piece about natal astrology and your natal chart. Absolutely. Um, that is that is that's your starting point. Now uh this is attested to intricacus too because he shits on uh in multiple writings he shits all over the astrologers of his day. He says they use

1:01:18it for divination. They use it like drawing lots [ __ ] The high he get actually gets very cranky about it. He he it's one of the it's one of it's it's great. He really gets grumpy about it and basically poratively sort of sort of chides them and [ __ ] and finger wags at them and and says like you know you know it's it's the higher it's the the astrology is important for it. It doesn't give a [ __ ] if if you know how many goats should you buy you know um and it's it's it's really interesting.

1:01:51Dr. Gregory Shaw has a couple of um uh really good essays on that for free on academia. I think it's academia.org. Um so you can read some of those firsthand. He has great commentary on that. But yes, the natal chart is extremely important. Uh Jamie Paul Lamb is the guy uh for this stuff. He's developed a system of what he calls donic astrology. um he actually taught uh a class at the the uh Institute for Hermetic Studies um that I took. It was like a six-part class and it's exactly

1:02:29that using your natal chart to sort of um begin a trajectory of donic uh the this was essential for for for Ian Lucas. Absolutely. Um, Pfurery, interestingly, though he he mentions the urgy and then kind of uh um dismisses it later, he laid out a lot of the mechanism by which donic astrology is possible because he's the one where we really hear talking about how the soul descending back into incarnation with its diamond uh puts on these accretions or astral garments that are influenced by way of the planetary

1:03:10spheres and their arrangement to each other. So you take on essentially what in the pyander they refer to as the vices. So he talks about what happens after death. You go to the first sphere and a certain vice is relinquished. You go to the second sphere, a a second vice is relinquished. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's incredible that it's the same thing. And but it is um and and so there uh that's a huge part of it. The amicus did not give us much to go on but we can and and and to

1:03:42a large extent um have uh reconstructed certain very important workings. There's things like the almutis figur al-muten figures from um you know Arabic uh astrology and and things like that. So uh check out his work Jamie Paul Lamb if you want to get a little bit more into uh donic astrology. It's really cool and it's important. — Awesome. All right. So, I want to talk about the Vatican ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons. I don't know if you've seen this or you're aware of

1:04:17this. So, Vatican City, November 15th, — Vatican has confirmed a ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons, — a centuries old secretive society that the Catholic Church has long viewed with hostility and has an estimated global membership of up to 6 million. Active members membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is prohibited because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry. the fat Vatican's doctrinal office said in a letter published by Vatican media on Wednesday. So, I wanted

1:04:54to get your thoughts on — Well, here are my thoughts. You know what's a secretive society? — What? — [ __ ] church. And you know what? I wish they'd ban touching all them little kids. — Don't we all? — Okay. And you know what might be the first step to that? Allowing these priests to [ __ ] marry. — Yeah. you know. Um, so I don't really care. It doesn't matter to me. Um, again, this it's you don't even want to hear my what I what I it's all tied together. I don't I

1:05:31don't believe that any I don't believe that any institution particularly nowadays but at least for the last two or 30 hundred years I do not believe that any institution rises to any significant level of power or prominence without first passing through a gate that has been installed in our society for centuries. And you basically once you p once you make that decision to pass through that [ __ ] gate and play and and enter into that that game um you don't get to make the decisions anymore.

1:06:03Everything becomes political and everything serves one end. But the key to all that working is that you must maintain the illusion of variety when in reality it's one hand in a multi-fingered glove. — So, um I think it's political. I think it's irrational and I think it's, you know, it's just another thing like, okay guys, what else we got on the docket? It's a [ __ ] distraction. you know, there's the Catholic Church has so much more that it should be dealing with,

1:06:42you know, than uh Okay, what's next? Freemasons? Nope. You know, like we don't give a [ __ ] you know? None of us care. So, it's uh we're out here doing charity and and and and lectures and feeding each other, you know? We're not I'm not wearing a [ __ ] pointy hat in a room with gilded walls telling people what they can and cannot do, you know? I mean, I I went to the Vatican. Yeah. There's this whole idea of apostolic poverty. If you took your [ __ ] finger and scratched the wall like this, you'd

1:07:17have enough gold under your nail to feed a family of four for a [ __ ] month. So, I I don't want to hear it. I don't care. No one No, no one should care. — Yeah. Um it's just yeah so like I see it I mean I feel like it's the way they see it is almost like a competition thing like the irony is like you said like an institution such as Freemasonry of which actually invibes virtuous qualities and character building and maintains an actual uh propagation of integrity within individuals is being banned. And

1:08:00I think that maybe they see it as something like, whoa, you know, a lot of these people are really value valuing this thing, Freemasonry, and finding value in it be because of its good qualities and it's and it the effect that it's having on people gravitating towards it because of it. I feel like — I as I said before, Freemasonry is a threat to that [ __ ] glove, — that hand under the glove. That's why the glove the the hand under the glove is always it's you're always going to be

1:08:35able to tell where it is. You're never going to be able to point out where exactly, but you'll be able to feel the tide because it's always pointing at something and telling you that it's basically taking everything that it is, all the evil and exclusion and and selfishness and manipulation and clandestine properties and it's always projecting that at whatever it's trying to take down. So, I don't look at the thing that people are saying is bad. I look at the mouthpiece and I say, "Well,

1:09:08the the bad is in there somewhere. It's animating that because there's a concerted effort." Why now? When's the last time the church discussed [ __ ] Freemasonry? — You know, the first papal bull was in like the 1700s. Why now? — Well, you see, it's it's a con, you know, I I see a concerted effort, — you know. Okay. Over here, you've got the conspiracy thing, you know. Yeah. For years they've been talking about it's really no nobody gave a [ __ ] about

1:09:36the Freemasons in the 80s. It's like it was like after 9/11 that people started going on the [ __ ] internet and talking about the Freemasons, you know, it's this is a recent thing with w with this particular iteration. Granted, there's been an anti-masonic furer here and there um since since the organization started. That's a consequence of of fearing the unknown, you know, but There is a concerted effort to paint us, me, you know, and the people I hang with, uh, as like these clandestine

1:10:14movers and shakers trying to like move the world to this, uh, you know, oppressive [ __ ] whites only, uh, society. It couldn't be further from the [ __ ] truth. That's what this thing does. That's what whatever's pointing at us saying, "Oh, you do this thing." No, no, no. You're you're it's like it's not even projecting. It's framing, you know? It's it's an elementary tool. Kids do it, you know? — Yeah. — Blame your [ __ ] on someone else. And

1:10:44then not only that, but then you've got the whole, you know, anti-masculine solidarity. If you want to be a man in a group with other men, you are all of a sudden [ __ ] far right. You know what I'm saying? It's like you're all of a sudden you're anti- [ __ ] justice. You're anti-, you know, uh the the this this social justice movement, whatever the [ __ ] this, you know, the confused mass of of uh you know, um whailing really at this point is it's you're just against that if you

1:11:17you say, you know, yeah, men need a place to come together in solidarity, too. I mean the past like I think three years alone male suicide rates which were already extremely high have doubled. Um so and that's probably also a little bit about of what they want. Um but so there's also this this whole like you know intersectional feminist piece where it's like well why why is why is it just men you know and then there's the whole trans issue that we're going to have to deal with that will likely

1:11:45destroy masonry. It's it's multiple points coming in to to take something down because as you say to your point, an organization that takes young men and brings them in and and in bonds of solidarity with their elders and with their their contemporaries and with their peers and then instead of making us [ __ ] brutes and making us weak, sneaky, manipulative men, it it asks us to to to hold ourselves accountable and and be a boon to our society, engage in charity, you know, um, every human being has a claim

1:12:26to your kind offices, but first you have to rectify yourself in order to be able to help others. You have to have some kind of moral compass. Of course, that's not allowed anymore. Of course, we're the [ __ ] bad guys, you know? So, it's uh ultimately that's what I think is going on. And I don't want to veer into like conspiracy theory podcasts, although those are fun to listen to, but it's, you know, we we it's a [ __ ] reality of our time. It's a reality of our time.

1:12:56And these things transcend. They truly do transcend the purely physical. These are it's as St. Paul said, we fight not with with evil of flesh and blood. We fight against evil in in in high places, spiritual evil. — Yeah. Yeah. very very stupid move on their part, but I'm not surprised. Uh lending more credence to the corrupt aspects of these institutions for sure acting as basically ideological dictators um evil mass creating as holiness. Um when it's basically in complete opposition um but yeah. Okay.

1:13:31So to summarize, I want to yeah to get you to summarize what with what we've said, what constitutes a modern philosopher magician? How would you sort of sum that up and what it all means to you given kind of what we've gone over about, you know, giving getting kind of a general understanding of these philosophers, the way they think, the the way they live, the way they behave, their character. Um, and then kind of tying that in with um a magician. What would you say constitutes a modern philosopher

1:14:07magician? — I would I just would never call myself a modern philosopher magician. I feel like that's a very it the title in and of itself to me wouldn't it wouldn't feel right. It would feel like, you know, wearing like a I don't know, like a flavor flave clock necklace or something like that, you know, like look at me, you know, I just wouldn't do it. But if you're asking me what what I think the attributes of a philosopher and a magician should be. Yeah. Um I think that

1:14:43first of all you are you have faith in in a higher power. Um and you know I don't want to I don't want to mince words here. I'm not talking about you believe that uh you know Lucifer or Satan is the guy is the you live in the light where you you try as hard as you can um and you constantly reach out for some form of connection and assistance. understand that, you know, it's it's kind of like it's the whole admonition of Tifereth in the mystical cabala. You know, if you know

1:15:27the tree of life, somebody standing in Malc looks up at Tifereth and sees a king. But from Kether looking down, you see a baby reaching up. Um, and that's that's that to me is the philosopher. Um, and the magician is the theist, not goetic magic, um, not money magic, not growing in personal power, because that power is nothing. It's [ __ ] peanuts. Peanuts don't mean [ __ ] you know? Um, the only way to have true power is to completely relinquish the desire for it. And I'm not talking about in some

1:16:09Buddhist way where it's like now you don't care about anything. who you know you have the ultimate freedom. No, that's not what I mean. You'll get power. Um but you have to really truly not want it, you know, like that's just what it is. And then it doesn't become your [ __ ] top priority anymore. Your top priority is is the the acting out the expression of your aeros for your creator. You know, you're a meist. It's not about, you know, monetarily helping people or yourself,

1:16:46you know, it's it's about embodying the highest possible ideals that you can comprehend abstractly. Ground them, bring them down, act them out. That doesn't mean you can be perfect. You know, good Christians get this rap all the time. good ones, you know, not the ones who are Bible thumping and yelling at you, but just simply because they are [ __ ] human. They always will be and they don't do everything perfect. Um, they're viewed as hypocrites. And I I that's another really important thing. I

1:17:24think that you need to understand that even if tomorrow, you know, you found out I'm like the worst person in the world, it doesn't invalidate anything I'm telling you. You know, because it is about the message and it's not about the [ __ ] messenger. You know, it should nothing that anybody else nowhere where anyone else falters should be your weak excuse to give in and say it's not real. It was [ __ ] No. Take it as a challenge upon yourself to go and say, "Well, I I can do it better.

1:18:02I will do it better. I will manifest these qualities. I will ground them." because that's how they win, right? You're there's always there's always something. We're always human, you know, and and one of the quickest ways I think we see in this world in that we're living in to get people to abandon the path of morality, you know, the path of of of of good. really the middle path really um uh is to kind of show our weaknesses so that we think it's all hypocrisy and

1:18:40it's that [ __ ] it's that it's that teenage angst [ __ ] Santa experience all over again. You lied to me. It's not real. So you go and you run to the opposite and you know just start rebelling again. Don't let that happen. You know, you have to stay grounded in your convictions and understand that these principles transcend people. We're never going to embody them perfectly here, but doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. And and one of the most important things, particularly for a magician, is

1:19:10that you embody the tree in a balanced aspect. That means sometimes, Gabbor, that means sometimes, you know, the fire of strength and the the sword of strength and severity and and that fire that fire of when the forest is overgrown and therefore the health of the forest as a whole is in jeopardy. You have to be able to burn some of it. It's just what it is, you know, like that's the way things work. Um, and and but but at the same time, you know, mercy always before you engage in severity when it ends up being

1:19:59an ultimate mercy. And that's uh that's really it, you know? I mean, I'm sure I could go on for another [ __ ] hour about all these attributes, but I I think that's those are the most important things that are like I'm feeling like I should say. — Amen. Thank you, brother. I love you. I appreciate you. To the listeners, I appreciate all of you so much. Sincerely, um this was an awesome one. So excited to put it out there. And uh any closing thoughts to wrap it up? — Uh that's it, man. I love you, too. I

1:20:34appreciate, you know, it's been a while since we've done this, so this is this was [ __ ] excellent. This was a long one. I'm feeling good. Beat, but good. And I'm going to sleep well. I appreciate you, dude, because I'm I'm being honest with you. None of this is possible without you. — You just know how to set the stage and the questions to ask and kind of, you know, you make because I got to feel safe like I can say this stuff. And so that's that's super important.

1:21:02— Oh, yes. All right, brother. Till next time. — All right.