The Seven Sages, Socrates, Plato, and the Hermetic Current

13:07until people hated him and then they killed him. Um and you know somebody like you know uh uh Solon was to impart laws but the these people were sassic. They were what it meant to be a sage was to embody a level of wisdom that was for their time superhuman. It was not available not possible to other people. But it's kind of like this interesting thing with the collective unconscious and we see it now. We see it a lot is that once you kind of once you kind of acquire um a knowledge or an understanding and

13:44then that becomes a little bit more diffuse into larger mainstream populations. It's available now in the collective unconscious. I mean that's you know you see kids that are like I've never seen so many prodigal musicians in my life. It's embarrassing. — I had I I was horrible for 10 years. I mean, literally, there's nine-year-olds who could kill kick my ass on a guitar or a drum kit, you know, and and there's there's many other instances of that where it's like we've acquired these

14:11virtues and these understandings. They're a more available in the collective unconscious. So, yeah, you look back at somebody like Solon who gives laws and somebody like Plato and you're like, "Yeah, big [ __ ] whoop." You don't understand. Like, you know, people were having sex with sheep. Like it's that it's a quantum [ __ ] leap for that time. — Yes indeed. Okay, so some other notes on Thales. So Thales studied the mysteries in Cree as well as in Egypt spending

14:43time with priests and astronomers under the reign of Amos. Um, I don't know if this is a good point to ask you just a note on the Grecian mysteries and what they entail. U, maybe just some little side notes on that would be kind of cool cuz I don't know, it might be things we've already discussed, but particularly Grecian mysteries, what would those in? Would that be like uh Samothian mysteries or would that be like a separate — No, the Kabiri had a near eastern flavor to them. Um, we also don't know anything

15:21about We really don't know much about uh the, you know, the Samothian mysteries. Um, again, we have fragments, we have things that are passed on. It's not like we have like if you were to find a Golden Dawn ritual script in in like a chest 300 years from now be like okay this is what they were doing. Um but I would say the quintessential Greek mystery traditions were the Elucinian mysteries. um the mysteries of Elusus or Alfina. Um those were quintessentially Greek. Those were uh I mean just is they used to walk

16:07there right in an entourage from Athens. So um Athens and Athens is is is Greece. Athens is ancient Greece. When you think of these things you it's it's you're you're getting mostly the Athenian vibe. you know, this whole idea of um philosophy and democracy. Look at Sparta. They didn't do any of that [ __ ] You didn't do any of it. You know, as a matter of fact, they condescended to the Athenians. They called them effeminate. — And I'll be honest, the the I mean,

16:41to this day, Athenians are [ __ ] scared of people for Sparty, you know? It's still it's still Lacona is the [ __ ] place because it's like it's just in the culture. Um but it's you know the those were the mysteries associated with the Athenian polish the citystate the mysteries of of Elucus and so these involved and I've been there three times the sanctuary at Alpsina um and I've done some vision work there actually it's very it's just an amazing place to be but um

17:20it it involved the mysteries of Deiter Panie and Pphanie's abduction into the underworld by Hades which I think we've spoken about on this podcast and how you know when you break down the names you know particularly of Hades and and of Praphanany uh you know Hades being um the invisible one and uh you know but really they called him Pluto which is the giver of wealth and Plato says that yeah people didn't he scares the [ __ ] out of people when you call him the invis the unseeable one. So people call

17:54him the giver of wealth. And there's always multiple things, right? Because hell is in the ground and that's where minerals are, you know, things like gold and and and and uh stuff like that, precious gems, but also because, you know, um uh well, we could get into the religious and philosophical implications, but in reality, they were they were it was it was a a twofold thing. They were examining the microcosmic cycle of the seasons in relation to the primordial pattern of the soul's death

18:32which was its birth in a physical body. — In other words, to be born to the flesh is to die to the world beyond. And that's Pphanie's name, you know, it means the bringer of murder or the murderer. And not only that, but in in in in some of the tales, right? So, um, and I will say go look at the unless unless you don't want any spoilers if you're in in a a golden dawn order. If you go and look at the three diagrams, particularly the first two diagrams of the garden of Eden, the

19:11Garden of Eden before and the Garden of Eden after the fall, you will see multiple things in there that are directly um I would say suggestive of or you know apppropo to the pcanany myth. And one of the things is that pphanany is abducted while she's picking flowers. And what do you have to do to pick flowers? You have to bend down. You have to bend. You have to reach down. And the flower in some of the the retellings of the myth is the narcissist flower. — And then her mother, Deita, walks the

19:50land weeping for her. Right? If you're familiar with the Garden of Eden after the fallout diagram, think about that. It's on there. Um, and uh, and then eventually, you know, Zeus sends Hermes because he's the only one who can travel between the three realms. And you got to give her back because Demier is starving the people. They can't give Zeus offerings. They're all dying. They're miserable. They're abandoning worship. Um, so you're throwing off the cosmic order. So send

20:24her back. Uh but the thing is in her her captivity down there, you know, refusing food, she did she grew weary and and and and thin and and hungry and Hades convinced her just just have this one little pomegranate seed. And she did and she had to come back. He said, "Okay, but she's eaten of the fruit of the underworld and so she's she's got to come down here at least half the time." And so why people live there? Why how the [ __ ] does that make any sense? Well, it's it's emblematic of the idea that

21:00Plato talked about, you know, was this idea and and Platinus talked about the reason that metam psychosis is is allowed to happen. The Greek word for reincarnation, the whole idea of the degradation of the soul is that we taste of the fruits of materiality and become too attached to them to move on. when we die and uh and so we keep having to come back you know and it's the same this is this is the myth of Panie and this was the myth myth of Elusus and you know obviously Urgot the you know um that they synthesized uh

21:38LSD from it grew on the hills there um and you know PD Newman's done a lot of work having to do with this kind of stuff and uh the use of enthogenic substances and compounds in for initiatic purposes. I'm not completely convinced one way or the other. Yes, absolutely they could be, but I know for a fact it wasn't the end all be all. — I know for a [ __ ] fact that it's not like, okay, this is what initiation traditions were. We just took drugs. — It's like there's there's,

22:09— you know, there's a whole other component, right? Um, but that that kind of gets it kind of gets pushed to the side. I mean, it's you don't, you know, I the research is important, but the the you don't want to like go I I would say that I I wouldn't want to take a a Hunter Thompson tack to like this kind of stuff because it's you, you know, — that and that's the whole that's the whole dilemma of like who we are as postmodern people and the baggage that

22:39we unconsciously carry into the study of this stuff, which really people that were actually doing this stuff hundreds and thousands of years ago, — they would I'm telling you, they were different [ __ ] people. — Yeah. — You can see it in the way they wrote, the way the things that they built, the beauty that they embodied, the the music that they liked, the things that they said, you know, the things that they valued, they were not us. They were not us. And so we can't do what they did and

23:06expect the same results. There's a lot of preliminary work that needs to happen. But what's great about Elusus is that I mean it actually becomes beloved of Rome. So when Rome conquers Greece, they actually give money to the temple. You know that now they're really flourishing because they're they're backed by the empire and Marcus Aurelius was initiated at Elus. — Oh wow. I don't I did not know that. — I got to send it to you. There's a there's a big bust of him

23:39— that's still that's that's still exists. It's enormous. Still exists at Elusis. Um and I I took a picture next to it. I'll send it to you. I'll text it to you. It's really cool picture. But um yeah, he was initiated at Elus. — That's fascinating. So there there's an Israel I think it's a Israel regard book called The Garden of Pomegranates. Is this related to what you were just talking about? What's the thing with the pomegranates? To be honest with you, I

24:05read that book in 2014 and I don't remember any of it. — Okay, cool. I haven't read I have it like on a digital archive or something, but I haven't read it. Um — I did a whole course of, you know, Middle Pillar, Garden of Pomegranates, Philosopher Stone, Heart of True Healing, Oneear Manual, Golden. I read all that stuff many, many years ago. And um I mean, I guess I I don't know. I don't want to say none of it was worth reme remembering. I remember I remember liking it but I just

24:32can't really remember a lot. — Yeah. Okay. So, so Thales he talked a lot about God saying things like God is that which has no beginning or end. — God is the most ancient of all things for he is not begotten. He said that the world is animated and God is the soul thereof diffused through each part. those divine moving virtue those divine moving virtue penetrates through the element of water. He talked about things like the importance of knowing thyself and how easy it is to be run by another.

25:12How sweet it is. — Sorry, go ahead. I think Dioynes Leertius um he he attributes the saying not know thyself — first to Thales but I don't I don't know that that's substantiated anywhere. — Oh wow that's interesting. So how he said um the importance of knowing thyself and how easy it is to be run by another and how sweet it is to follow one's own divine will of which has no beginning or end and that is hard hard but good to know ourselves for that is to live according to nature. So those

25:51are just some little tidbits on Thales. Do you have any last closing thoughts on Thales? Anything else you'd like to? — Well, well, just to to your point again, um talking about uh Democratus earlier, um Flut right the neoplatinist and the historian um he attributed well he says that Thales actually went to Egypt and Babylonia, — right, and studied again astronomy, ge geometry, mathematics there with him with them. — Yeah, that's a good good point to be had. um kind of goes along with those as

26:29well. Okay. So then we have uh Socrates sculpture and son of Sephronicus. He was big on philosophy being the way to true happiness of which he says encompasses the contemplation of God and abstract and to abstract the soul from corporeal sense. Uh, so Sophronicus, uh, do do you know anything about this guy, his his dad? — No, — I don't either. — As far as as far as I was aware, um, as far as I was aware, like the the real historical evidence that we have of Socrates was a was his like um, believe

27:13it or not, I think an enlistment record, like a record of him being in the military. — Oh, wow. Okay. That's I mean his the first platonic dialogue um [ __ ] I can't forget if it was the crito or the catalus um it might be first or first or second alibiis anyway um there's I I anyway one of the first platonic dialogues in terms of like when we've dated you know when modern scholars have dated to okay this was written probably this time this before this before. Um, it details Socrates coming home from the

27:52military — and he talks he talks about it like that's that's the story of the Platonic dialogues. It it takes place when Socrates gets back to Athens after after the war. — Oh wow. — So it's Yes. So I think I don't know anything about um Sepharonicus. Is that that was what the name was? Uh yes. Sephron sronus. Sophronis. — Sophronicuscus or sophronicus something like that. — That's that that that in there. I hear I hear finesis which is is is the wise

28:32— that might that is probably correct how you pronounce it. — It probably there's just that's like the root of the name. There's probably that prefix. I just don't I can't hear it. I don't know what it means. — That would make sense though. Yeah. So, he was a believer in the immortality of the soul as causal nature of living motion. He was a big promote proponent of justice. It was said that he never did anything without advising first with the gods. He was a man not of country

28:59but of the world. There's a story about him being demanded what countryman he was and he answered not Athens nor Greece but of the world. — Yeah. Cos cosmopolit. That's where the that's where the term cosmopolitan comes from. — Oh, that's cool. Okay. He talked about uh good people not being good because of some high birthright, but those who are noble in their qualities. He never did anything without advising first the gods like I was saying. Um maybe you can elaborate on on that. Do you view that

29:36as him having connection with the gods in the sense of like the planetary influences? And is there anything additional that you would like add in with that notion? — I would say that um he never did anything without consulting his diamond. — That makes sense to me. not the not the gods, his diamond because he says that now he he he swears to um to the gods. He he said well here's the thing also, right? He's given a charge by the god Apollo to go out and and speak, you know, um that's the way that he he kind

30:17of embodies it. I'm pretty sure it's it's Apollo who tells him, you know, to to go out and gives him his mission. So, he defin he does serve Apollo. But another interesting thing is that um he you know, he he checks in with his diamond, his his genius, his guiding star. And another interesting thing is particularly in the apology um part of the last days of Socrates when he's uh you know being put to death. He's on trial and he's being put to death. Well actually the the

30:52interesting thing is that they give him a choice. either say exile or death and he chooses death and he says if I would have chosen exile I wouldn't be able to to die with any integrity — because the philosophic life is its own reward and it's the shest guarantee of uh you know um reward in the afterlife but uh the interesting thing in the apology is that he actually he swears to uh I think it's toos to the god to god — you know he refers many times in there or several times to to god not to the

31:31gods he doesn't say I swear by the gods he says I swear — that's cool that you mentioned that because I had wondered in you know this this era with these philosophers what that like what the name was for the god — um and what they would have referred to that as — the thing is you have a lot of scholars are saying like, "Well, no, they were they were avowed polytheists." So, um, he was just talking about Zeus. He was talking about Sky Daddy, the highest god.

32:03— Um, we don't [ __ ] know that. — But what we do know is that there's a tradition of hetheism and and ultimate monotheism, right? We see that. We see that in in Plato's conception of the the demiurge, right? That's and Plato in in the Timeus, right? Named after the Pythagorean character, the Pythagorean philosopher Tyus in that book who like it's it's it's rare that in that it's one of the Platonic dialogues where like Socrates doesn't speak that much. He's not the

32:38main character of the dialogue. In this dialogue, Timus is the main character and he talks really the demiurge, you know, Demiodus, the craftsman. I mean that's kind of the chief god you know he creates everything else after him using the forms right and then we see we see that that in um Plato that was what Plato would have it's the closest thing he would have associated to to Aagathon the good which is above everything else the the monatic center of of the universe the the the cause you know of

33:14the universe the first cause that's his conception of it. And then you would have um later on you'd have uh you know Platinus talking about Tohen the one — you know and then and then news which was tantamount to the demi urge taking the latent potentialities which were inexpressable in their their state as the one right a you everything all at once you know uh that has been is now and ever was um in potentia There's no way for that to express itself but through the aspect of the

33:50news and it's a holy trinity you know news there were all a triunity but tohen was the absolute it was the the the really the first thing and so you see this tradition of heotheism or ultimate monotheism where again it's the white light passing through the prism the white light is toen the white light is toagathon now the the spectrum of colors on the other side that were concealed within when joined together in the white light um when separated those are the gods. So So yeah, when he's talking about I swear

34:31to God he means the highest god. It doesn't mean Zeus. — Yeah. — You know so but but a lot of like historians don't [ __ ] think this. — You know what I'm saying? Like that's not their job. That's that's what I'm saying about like the bifurcation and compartmentalization of our minds is that they just it could it would not dawn on them uh that this kind of that this because it it's like I know you know historical scholastic investigation techniques. I don't know

35:01anything about Platinus you know his philosophy and to hen and all that stuff. So, but it's important to note that, right? Because it's really it's at the center of his theology. He's he's in his last days and he's swearing to it. — Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. All right. So, then now we have the man that you despise most of all, the one that you can't stand, you hate talking about so much. Um, — got my favorite name, though. — Plato. Uh they say that very sarcastically cuz

35:32we know that you I loves himself some Plato. So Plato said things like quote truth oh friend is a fair and desirable thing but it is a thing of which is hard to persuade man. Couldn't agree more with that. Uh he was a man of liberty and opposed to tyranny. apparently offended Dionis who told Plato he talked like a old doard and Plato replied and you like a tyrant. He learned from the wise men of Egypt studying the universe and it's believed that he derived much of his mystical bent from Hermes Trismagist

36:14particular concerning the divine goodness. He was opposed to extravagance. Uh the thing I took away from him personally when I when I first learned about him um like my freshman year in high school or something was question everything. I I still you obviously live by that very much today. Um — one thing just one thing I want to point out is that it's anacronistic to think that Plato Plato learned from Hermes Trish Migistus because Hermes Hermes Trish Megistus did not really evolve until probably like 300 years after

36:47Plato was was dead. — Oh, okay. That's that's cool then. Yeah, whatever I got that from was a little bit flawed then. — Well, I mean, if it's the internet, you got to expect that. — It was actually a like a Rosacrruian document, but could have been — those two those two. I mean, like the worst place to get that kind of information is actually from the mythies of of of our occult traditions, unfortunately. — Yeah. Um, yeah. So, there's obviously like

37:17full episodes we could do on Plato, but what are some of the ways you would describe Plato, his philosophy, his religious nature, his kind of core teachings and and all that? — Well, first, there's a couple of things that I want to say, — okay? — And because you can't talk about say you can't talk about Plato without talking about Socrates. And most of the time you can't talk about Socrates without talking about Plato because the bulk of what we know of Socrates uh at least at

37:46in his character comes from the Platonic dialogue. They're not, you know, we can't averiate that these are factual documents. In fact, it might be a little stupid to think that or or to even even attempt uh to go that uh route of of interpretation. But essentially, you know, a lot of what we understand about Socrates comes from Plato. Um one of the things that Socrates says is that I only know that I know nothing. And that's [ __ ] wrong. That is one of the most abused and touted and incorrect translations

38:30of what Socrates actually says from the Greek. I have it right here. He says, quote, and I'm I'm there's there's a Greek translation above it. And then there's there's a basically a literal translation underneath it. Mind you, this was written by Plato, but it's it's coming out of the mouth of Socrates in dialogues. I seem then, at least as far as this one man goes, to be in this one thing wiser since I do not claim to know what I don't think I know anyway. So, does that sound like he's saying I

39:03only know that I know nothing? No, he's saying I don't claim to know things I don't know about. That's what he says. Why is that important? Because if you look at the Socratic trajectory, Plato systematically picks some of the most popular and well-known real life philosophers and he puts Socrates in a [ __ ] mental boxing match with them and Socrates creams them uniformly every time just uh and what he's doing is he's picking apart all of their philosophies one by one. the sophists, you know, this

39:40guy, that guy, uh, Credalus, the only one is that he didn't do that with is Tameus, you know, because Tameus um, was the I guess like the main ortor of of that whole thing. But other than that, you know, like a lot of a lot of it consists in in Socrates picking out the uh, hypocrisy. What he does is that he starts with basically okay you say that you know this and then systematically he goes down and he shows how they actually don't know what they say they claim to know. You see that over and over and over. But

40:27Socrates knows Socrates knows before he even gets into the conversation with them how to destroy them. He already knows where there's wrong where where they're wrong. A and B. How do you go into philosophical disc? I mean, you know, that's the whole thing. Socrates talks. He says, "Look, I you know, I don't know. I'm just I'm sincerely I just want to know. I'm just asking a question." And then something devastating comes out to the the other guy's argument. And so,

40:56it's like — he's kind of it's almost like he's playing possum. like he he knows how to rope them in, but he's got to play it this way. — Yep. — You know, um and it's it's it's fantastic. They're so much more complex than um than people really uh because you get tired of them. If you're not interested in this [ __ ] they're already difficult to read. If you're not interested in this stuff, you're just trying to get through it so that you

41:21can, you know, so that when the teacher calls on you tomorrow, you can give some [ __ ] answer. People don't actually read this [ __ ] you know? And this is, if you ask me, if somebody was like, "Okay, if you had to tell somebody who's just about to incarnate into Earth, tell them what to read, it would be like it would be probably three of Plato's dialogues, three of my favorites, and and and and the Gospel of John." But um another thing that I want to add on is in the Mino the other Platonic dialogue

41:55Socrates says this quote we shall be better and braver and less helpless if we think that we ought to inquire than we should have been if we indulged in the idle fancy that there was no knowing and no use in seeking to know what we do not know. This is a theme upon which I am ready to fight in word and deed to the utmost of my — that is an important thing especially in relation to the thing of not knowing anything. — Exactly. So this is another another way that these these things these [ __ ]

42:32scriptures is what they are — are twisted and used to kind of promulgate this idea that like this postmodern solistic nihilism that ult that eventuates in this you know um really it's a psychosis that that is inflicted on us you know truly truly it's a psychosis because it's strict stripping us of all our most human attributes with the idea that I need to let go of my humanness in order to to to reach some sort of spiritual development. Well, I have news for you friends. That doesn't happen

43:12until you're [ __ ] dead. Um in reality you should seek to become more than human you know uh as we as we understand it as Socrates says and live by ideals which are perfect and it's it's not even about whether or not we can reach those perfect ideals but it's it's about striving to embody them constantly. There is such thing as good. There is such thing as bad. There's right, there's wrong. Platonic philosophy installs you at the interface to know immediately, incontrovertibly, what is

43:52right and what is wrong. He removes gray area, you know, which we're in love with gray area because that's where we get to sneakily do whatever the [ __ ] we want and look at, you know, and and use that as like our cover. No, no, no. It's not it's not as simple as you think it is, you know. And it's like, well, look at the society we have. It's a [ __ ] nightmare. Um, uh, because people, this is the way we think. This faulty [ __ ] software that we didn't even, you know,

44:21we're patting ourselves on the back. We didn't even do this. This was done to us and we're waving it around like it's, you know, we're in apex civilization, you know. Meantime, we're we're everything is crumbling — around us. And the thing, we won't point at the way we [ __ ] think. we're just pointing at everyone else, you know? It's like it's like that Spider-Man meme where it's a piece of [ __ ] you know? It's like and and everything in the room

44:44is on fire. So this that's exactly what I have to say about Plato. — That's what his that's what his dialogues are. — That's you know that's this is it. This is the essence of Plato. — So Taeus was Tus like an elder of Socrates or a contemporary or or how does she fit into this? I don't I'm I'm not aware like in actuality. — Yeah. — You know, but I uh in in the dialogue he's uh he's a contemporary obviously, right? He's talking to him

45:16— into a room a room full of guys. Uh but um but he's a Pythagorean philosopher because right Pythagoreanism was a tradition the same way you know Platonism became a tradition. you know, it was platonism became the tradition, but um but yeah, you know, it was like that that was the school he was from. — Yeah. Okay. And then so with Hermes Trismagist, uh I don't know exactly where he actually fits into all of this, but I want to talk about him. Um, I don't I don't know what the current scholarship

45:56is in regards to like the general consensus about him as a historical figure, if it's mostly believed that he was or if he wasn't. Um, — so yeah, I want to ask you what you think about all that. That's where you got from the Rosie Christian documents because up until fairly recently it was believed that um Hermes Tris Meistus was a contemporary of Moses the biblical patriarch. Um, so yeah, of course, somebody writing in in uh, you know, 1889 or 1920 would have been like uh, you know, I don't know. Yeah, Hermes

46:35just used to have lunch with Plato and Santa Claus. But um but but we we understand now that um there are different religious implications specifically because of when this really epet begins to emerge, right? um the the combination of Thoth and Hermes and this um thrice magnified, thrice greatest um epitet and it happens when Hellenism uh comes after the Alexandrian conquest when uh Egypt is conquered by Greece and the TMIC Greek dynasty is installed after Alexander's death and uh there's

47:18just all this intercourse between um Greek and uh an Egyptian religion, culture, what have you. And Greeks, Greeks did it a lot. They they were always saying, "Okay, this god that they have is like our god who does this." And they appropriated a lot of gods, right? He not originally a Greek god goddess. You know, Hecate was if anything, I mean, there's an Egyptian influence there because Heka — Heekka was the Egyptian god of magic. — Yeah. And then you have Hekate who was

47:53the Egyptian or the Greek goddess of magic and the moon and you know so it's they they they took a lot that was that's what the Greeks were that's how they became you know really magnificent you know it's is that they took from other cultures because they didn't have you know like I said earlier they you know cultural identity was not what we we don't have the historical context to know that this the we cannot assume that the way things appear for us is how it was back then, right? So they didn't

48:27have the same metrics or boundaries in terms of cultural identity. They had a language and they had a kind of a similar city-state situation happening. Okay? And then they were seafaring people. They thrived on trade. So they would come into contact with all these people, you know, uh Phoenicians, Persians, Egyptians, uh what have you. Um, and they would uh they were very very many of them there was a culture of curiosity and of um uh uh some people would call it appropriation and I'd tell those people to sit down.

49:03That's the story of of humanity. It's just like hey I learned this from you or you know this is you taught me this or you or this you know this I found some value. There's nothing that's like original to anybody anywhere. So, but but that's what they did. — So, so like if we're comparing historical figures say like Plato or Pythagoras and these guys versus a figure or an epitet Hermes Trismagist in terms of their curoreial existence allegedly like what would be the

49:35difference in terms of historical evidence that would lend more power to the plausibility of of one versus the other like a figure of Pythagoras versus Hermes? Like is it that we don't have um text texts that describe people actually interacting directly or or like what is the like method of uh deriving a conclusion or like maybe not a conclusion but like what what would you say is like more probable and why like what are the reasonings behind say somebody like Pythagoras versus Hermes? I would say

50:12that what happens is there's a school, right? And you have other people writing about when I learned from Pythagoras, he said this and when we when we were in Crettona and he taught me this, this is what happened. — That makes — that kind of first generation, you know, primary source, a witness to the actual teacher in the event. Whereas what we have mostly in in the hermetic literature is everything is written by Hermes — [ __ ] uh you know from 100 CE to 500 or or 100 B.CE to 500 CE

50:55you know this whole tradition of like no Hermes wrote this and what that is is it's appropriating a um a name as kind of like an intellectual brand. — Yeah. You know, it's like it's like brills. Everybody wants [ __ ] brill. Nobody can afford them, but everybody wants like brill on their like you're not going to read it either because it's this [ __ ] thick and you can't understand 30% of the words in there. But but um you know and if and and it's probably so niche because that's like

51:26academic. It's like they'll write like 845 pages on like this one crack that's in the wall in a temple of dendera, you know? like so but you know it's kind of like that attribution whereas like um we don't also the style of of dialogue right so it's like you have you have like in the corpus hermetic the pimeter is a great great example you have these you know kind of a son and a father um at least in the verbiage, but really most likely what's trying to be um uh again that three-fold or or or

52:16manifold sort of uh symbolic narrative of like yes, it's saying I'm I'm calling you father, you're calling me son, but also there's a teacher to apprentice and also right there's a god to a priest. There's there it's all of those [ __ ] things. It's all of them. Not only that, but there's the contemplative mystic hierofphant and the news, the mind of God. And that's that is a main topic that's a focus of the pyander, right? And he's basically saying or and

53:02the discourse the discourse on the eth and the ninth it's another hermetic piece from the nagamadi right it's about this guy who's saying look I'm going to channel the divine mind I'm going to allow the divine mind to to enter into me I mean I think it's a pine mander when he says I know everything that you want because I'm the noose he says that I know what you are and I know everything you think because I am the divine mind. I know all your desires, you know. So, it's not

53:35Socrates in the agora arguing with somebody over like, you know, the nature of what is blue. It's like these very very mystical almost um — I don't want to [ __ ] I and I don't I didn't want to put this out into the universe because I don't want any anybody to steal this uh get the drop before I I've I've done my work on it. But the thing is what I'm getting more and more used to in this work is realizing I don't own the truth. And what I came here to do was give you

54:05people these these [ __ ] things anyway. So take it, go and do whatever you need to do with it because uh that's the only reason I probably exist. But I look at the discourse on the eth and the ninth in multiple instances again layers of it. It's a manual for initiation. The discourse on the ace of the the ninth follows freemasonic ritual follows golden dawn ritual. The entire ritual like these rituals are based on the you know it's it's the perfect format. There's an entry, there's an invocation,

54:38there's a lecture, and then there's a [ __ ] you know, a a climactic moment where where where um the higher enters into or you know, uh the lower. And that's it's the same thing when the hierofphant or the the worshipful master walks to the altar and brings you the light. You know, the hierofphant walks between the pillars, intercedes on your behalf, prays for you first, then initiates you. What you don't know is going on is that they're in an astral simulacum they're

55:09attempting to bring down your your higher self and so that there's one moment of very very brief and tenuous union you know a bringing together for you you and that that's the discourse on the eth and the ninth. So these hermetic documents are much more in the vein of they're not really discursive. They're religious, you know, really really supremely religious, very abstract, um priestly in nature, you know, when you read them. And and uh and so I would say, you know, those two factors are the

55:46big things for me. Uh so okay some of the I don't know if you have any insight into this but you know I know I'm aware that uh what's his name um was it was it Fino under Medici that had brought into some of these things but as far as like the original documents containing things like the the divine pymander as a text are do or do we know who had originally authored — those works? No. — No. — We we we I think I'm pretty sure what we have most of the of the corpus formatum

56:34that was translated into Latin. I I believe again like this information has entered into my brain but whether or not it it's able to find uh room and board there permanently is you know that's a different subject but I'm pretty sure that they were in Arabic — um when when Ficino translated this stuff. So it would have been you know Coptic Attic Greek those type of things would have been the original source documents most likely. Um but uh they're they're all attributed to

57:09Hermes Trist Majistas. Um and that's that's the thing. But you see that in other you see that in religious traditions. You see that when when it's it when it's like when it's kind of this like mystical. It's kind of the same way people nowadays they say like, "Well, I spoke with my guides," you know, so then that whatever horseshit comes out of their mouth next is like incontrovertible. It's the [ __ ] truth whether whether it makes sense to you or not. And and people

57:42would do the same thing back then. They would just say, "Okay, yeah, no, Hermes Tris Magajist wrote this." — I I mean, um what's his name? Uh um uh Moses Deleon who wrote the Sephora Zohar you know that massive he he attributed it to it to he attributed the Zohar to uh Shime Benai you know an established rabbitical kind of authority you know but he he wrote it and he just attributed it to him to give it legitimacy, you — know, and and so that's that it's that's

58:24our best kind of informed position as to why all these documents ranging from different places, different, you know, uh, time periods, different styles, you know, and a lot of them even say contradictory things. — Yeah. — At points at points. So, but they're all attributed to Hermes Trisistas. And he actuallyist talks about it. He talks about how our ancestors attributed rightly all the works of all the great works of philosophy and mathematics and astronomy and religion to uh to Hermes. That's

59:00that's a quote I'm pretty sure from uh from on the mysteries. — Yeah. And then so think like in terms of timelines something like the Hermetica at least the original source documents versus something like um like the book of coming forth by day are those pretty much around the same time frame that we would have — well the thing is that the hermetica is massive the you know you get the like theer penguin version that's like this big fits in your pocket. Yeah. — Um it's like they don't they don't tell

59:35you that like oh this is like a very abridged version. The hermetic is enormous. The corpus hermeticum is just is just a part of the hermetica. Corpus hermeticum is not the whole thing. As a matter of fact it's a relatively small section of the hermetica because the hermetica it consists of the theoretical and the practical right the philosophic and the and the the the technical. So you have the philosophic stuff, you know, talking about the nature of the universe and the divine mind and how,

1:00:07you know, um, the temptation of the material corrupts the soul and binds it. Here again, you'll find that in any number of of of theoretical or philosophical hermetic texts from specifically from the corpus hermeticum. It's not unique to Plato, you know, it's or or the Platonist. This [ __ ] has been said over and [ __ ] over. nobody wants to hear it in but um you know then you have other you know works within the hermetica and then you have the practical hermetica which involves things like the the the Greek magical

1:00:44papyrie and that's like technical stuff astrological magic I'm pretty sure the picatrix fits into the yeah picatrix is definitely in the uh the practical hermetica right because and that that was you know gay I'm pretty sure that was written in the 900s in Arabic, but it was a it was a collection. The same way agria collected all these works and put them into the three books, um you know, uh the the sage who wrote the Pikatrix um did the same thing just I'm collecting all the wisdom of of of this, you know,

1:01:19the astrological magic and talismanic magic and I'm putting it all here for you. And I mean, they're incredibly similar. — Yeah. So when it when it's said that Plato derived much of his knowledge from Hermes trismistus uh would that make plausible sense at this time frame that he would have had access to any of those? — No. No. — Because Plato Plato did not exist contemporaneously with Hermes Trist Majistus. Plato lived um Plato lived I'm pretty sure three to 400 years before uh

1:01:59we entered into the common era. — Mhm. — So you start seeing Hermes Trish Majistus really around the first century uh BCE — maybe the second. So we're talking about this like a hundred years after Plato dies really is um is when you start seeing things attributed and I it's the practical stuff that's first — and so that would go along with like the corpus hermaticum as well. — Yeah. Corpus Hermeticum was all this stuff is all like all this stuff really

1:02:33that Marcilio Ficino got his hands on was medieval Arabic translations of the original Greek Greek Coptic but all emerging in Alexandria. Alexandria did not exist while Plato was alive. — Oh okay. — It happened after him. So Hermes tris majestice is not you know this happened as a consequence right because it's Thoth Hermes it's when Egypt and Greece mixed okay e Greeks had been going to Egypt but they didn't mix — you know what I'm saying like when Alexander brought Greek culture to the

1:03:12Egyptian world and say we're your overlords now we love you but we're your overlords that's when you get the the hermetic literature before then doesn't exist. — The thing is this, it's an inverse relationship. Plato was not informed by Hermes, Trish, magistas. Hermetic philosophy was informed by Plato. — Okay. So, what about like I don't know the uh origins or whatnot of something like the book of coming forth by day. Wasn't that said to have been like authored by

1:03:53Th which maybe would have been correspondent with Hermes? — Same thing. Same thing there where Right. Because there's there's um there are there's a tradition specifically for Thoth and for Hermes. — They say in their mythological cannons in their descriptions of the god and his duties for both of them they were the inventors of the arts and sciences. you know um again the Amlus says our ancient forebears amus wasn't even Greek you know I mean he was Greek he spoke

1:04:26Greek and he believe you know he had like he inherited a Greek tradition but what amicus tried to do was say okay yes to a lot of this but also we need to incorporate the Egyptian stuff we need to incorporate the calledan stuff right that he brings in the calledan oracles and and stuff because that was that that was like the manual, the quintessential text for his theology was the called an oracles. Um, and so he's trying to to blend them, to mix them because he says like the Greek stuff is way too heady.

1:04:58It's all in here. But what needs to happen is in order for you to experience all this spiritual [ __ ] that you're alluding to, you have to abandon discursive rational thought and you have to have an experience that is transrational. — You cannot explain it. it has nothing to do with the [ __ ] material universe, you know, you it's you cannot explain it. Um, and so that's that was his thing and he believed that that's what the ancient Egyptians and the ancient Calans were doing in their rights. Um, and this

1:05:27is exactly what I was talking about earlier when you have to abandon this the driver's seat, — you know. Um, and and that's really what it is. Uh but but um what what happens there is that uh Hermes and Thoth both get are attributed as you know the the instructors of humanity. They create science. They create the the art of of astronomy. Hermes is responsible in large part for um for like he he makes the first uh liar, you know. Uh he he actually it's pretty gruesome. he's born

1:06:06and he rips the the shell off of a turtle and I'm pretty sure he uses like something's intestines to make the strings and he plays this this loot and um Apollo is there uh and he is so pleased by this by the music and so taken aback that Hermes created this that he gives him the kaducius staff and it's with the kaducius staff now that Hermes can travel through all three worlds and you know and Thoth is the scribe. Now, what's interesting about scribes, and we get this from a uh henistic Egyptian, actually, I think

1:06:43it's ancient Egyptian, but we get it from an ancient Egyptian extract that was given to kids in school. And it's it's the teacher telling the kids, "Become a scribe." You know why? Because scribes can read and write. And so because they can read and write, they're always the foreman. They're never the laborers. They're always in charge. So the teacher is telling the students in this case, if you want to be something, be a scribe because no matter where your area of specialty is, you're going to be

1:07:19the foreman. You're going to be the manager. And it was true of Zosimus of Panopoulos. He was a priest scribe, but specifically for the workers of metal who were dying metal for Egyptian religious statuary. So there again, you have this idea of Thoth as a scribe. He's the one in charge. He's the boss. He sets everyone to work. — Okay. So last one poke one more time. So like Hermes was said to the first liar. You know, the liar was played by Pythagoras. — Played by Orpheus.

1:07:57— Orpheus. I mean he he he uh you know Pythagoras has claimed to have discovered his his theory of ratio and proportion by experimenting with you know the liar or the um a particular string. You have you you also have to realize that like Hermes when we talk about Hermes making the liar we're not talking about history you know. — Yeah. No, I I know. I'm just trying to trying to so um and like given that a lot of these guys studied in Egypt and doesn't Thoth predate Pythagoras and

1:08:37aren't like things of Thoth like inscribed on Egyptian walls and is it possible that the transmission of the information and uh like the god form of Thoth and things along these lines were transmitted and then maybe over time that is that what could be considered being associated with Hermes that Plato would have got his information or do you still say no? I don't know. — Um I think it's personally I don't think that's necessarily wrong saying that he learned his information that way through thought

1:09:16because he does he he does mention Thoth, right? And he he works he he uh he mentions how Thoth invented all this stuff. But um they could be actually you know um referring to exactly that. But in my opinion knowing what I know about what you know those people who would have bought this stuff years ago — um depending on what ro you know if we're talking about a Rossier do like I don't know what Rosie Christian document you're talking about. people write Rosie Crucian books now.

1:09:52— But the thing is, you know, the Rosian movement uh as a literary movement, you know, kind of died in the at the end of the 1700s. — Um and I think one of the last great Rosie Christian works was um well, anyway, I people don't fight me on that, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut, right? Um but uh I think personally if it's an older book there's a mistake being made because they thought you know Hermes magist was um was the uh was a contemporary of Moses. They could also be speaking poetically,

1:10:33— you know, they could all they could definitely be speaking poetically, but I think um it would be more appropriate uh given the time period to say either he was a student of thought or a student of Hermes. I agree — to — to me — or probably because the name Hermes I I would feel like both would be more um relevant to relating it in terms — and it's it's it's really clear that that Hermes trust and the god Hermes are not the same thing. They're not the

1:11:10same. They're not meant to be the same thing. It's it Hermes Tris Magajistus didn't look like an ibis. — Hermes Tris Magajistus was not a god. — That's a really good point. — Hermes Tris Magistice was the archetype of like an old mage alchemist, — you know? It's you always see him with a beard and he's got like the the wizard's cap and he's got some wand and he's doing math. It's not he's not — it's definitely not like in regards to a

1:11:39historical figure then in that context like they wouldn't be saying Hermes Trisus he learned from Hermes Trismaggistus as a historical figure but maybe as what Hermes Trismagistus represents in terms of like a symbol or something like that. — Yeah. Like speaking poetically. — Yeah. Yeah. Okay. like to like as if to say, you know, really I mean Hermes Trees Magistas in a lot of ways is kind of also a reflection of or of well I would say thought would be a um so in some we're getting kind of hairy

1:12:17in the waters here and I'm not trying to confuse anybody here but I will say in some like 19th early 20th magical societies they viewed Thoth as the Egyptian concept of um of the the noose and the divine mind, you know, and and and really, you know, it's kind of hairy. — But in the in the divine pymander, isn't it Thoth speaking to the divine pyander or is it not? — No, it's it's poress. — Oh, okay. — That's that's the where the name comes

1:12:55from. Po mandras means shepherd of men and — he says who is it that is speaking with him. — Um I it might be tat but but I'm not I'm I'm not I'm not 100% sure — and that's not correspondent with Thoth. — No. — Oh okay. Um it's it's uh it's it's kind of this student appren apprentice thing that's happening because — boy Mandress the divine noose — is way higher — right Tat Tat is like this young green

1:13:30apprentice who's asked you know doesn't really know what's going on he's like please teach me instruct me — you know or at least according to what we're talking about now really Hermes truce magistice would be the master. Hermes Tri magist would be the div the expression of the divine mind. Um he'd be the he'd be the higher one in in like okay discourse on the eth or the ninth when the the the te the father the teacher he's the one who says okay my son you're going to do this thing you're

1:14:01going to pray and chant and we'll sing together and then I'm going to let the divine mind enter into me and I'm going to have a vision and then I'm going to tell that vision to you. Turns out he has the vision but he can't really explain it because he says these things transcend words. That would have been if anything the figure of thought orous magist. It's never you know the the littleer guy is more — either the acolyte or the the the flesh and blood kind of the persona

1:14:33— like a representation of the initiate or something along those lines. — Yes. Exa Exactly. Exactly. That makes total sense. Um, I'm going to relight my instant real quick and then maybe we can move into the neoplatinists.