The Masonic Magician, The American Psyche / War on morality & The Pitfalls of Career Occultism

12:36not manifested. You are its regent here, but you are like the same way like a you know a ruby would correspond to like gabbora and in between the two is Mars. Like your physical body is that that synthe that physical material and your you know your persona is that kind of lower intermediary aspect of or expression of that that heatic chain of the self. But what you actually are is way higher than you. You can't you cannot cognize it with your persona. You cannot use the discursive mind to have

13:12any kind of um transcendent contact with it. Uh you can use what we call like astral gateway images and things like that to receive impressions from it. But the big experience um transcends the discursive mind, the intellect. Uh so with that said, you know, there are parts of this spiritual architecture um that they kind of run positive, negative, positive, negative um Deion Fortune used the theosophical sort of way of looking at that the you know physical, ethic, astral, mental, spiritual um you

13:58whatever it is, Buddha, nirvanic, paranvic, that whole chain. Um, and each one, even though they were like a cascade, it was a spectrum and there were not actually any clear hard boundaries uh between um each one of these uh phases or layers or or um types of existence that are connected with the self. uh they were kind of used to as this lock and key system. Um masculine and feminine, you know, uh the masculine gender typically biologically uh and in terms of the persona will a lot of times exhibit a more active. Now

14:42that that's something as archetypal and basic as literally having an erection and you know ejaculation. It's literally forward momentum. It's a it's a special example of the principle of of like you know hookma this just force um but it needs a ground otherwise that it nothing can become of it. Uh all the energy is spent goes off into nothingness. Um then you have the female biology which is more receptive or they call it passive. It receives um what what the male component is giving and from that uh it creates the

15:21triad of life really. Um and and so these things correspond to the general dispositions of of uh male and female and their etheric energy because your etheric energy is not the same as the astral you. Etheric energy is physical. It's the it's the most rarified form of physical. It's it's like the physical kind of fading into the astral. It's that little that narrow band in between as a mediating body between the dense physical, the astral. Then beyond that there's the lower astral, the higher

16:00astral, the lower mental, the higher mental. So they use these, right? So if a man is act is more active on the physical plane, he's going to be in the astral more negative. Whereas the female is going to be more positive. And that's emotional life, that's intuition, that's dreamwork, that's uh working with images, tarot, stuff like that. You see that? It's generally true. Now the thing is it's like you can't really make hard and fast stereotypes um because there's exceptions to every

16:34rules and there's to every rule and there's a spectrum of this stuff but generally I mean that holds true you know and um and so Dion Fortune was using these uh positive negative positive negative to kind of plug um male and female initiates in with each other uh to do this this magic that she called basically the the the broad term she gave it was the circuit of force. It's interesting because she calls it a circuit and it does utilize what your etheric energy your physical etheric energy is psychosexual in

17:11nature. Um it just is. So uh the thing that Dion Fortune was was constantly saying is like yes you want to build sexual energy because the sexual impulse is creative. That's what it's meant to do. Doesn't matter what in 2024 we're using sex for. — What it was meant to do was procreate. It's an impetus and impulse for procreation. So at its core, it is a creative impulse. But when you ground it with an orgasm, that energy goes nowhere. It just gets grounded. Whereas if you utilize it and sublimate it,

17:51right? It's like that that you know that Buddhist thing that you see see them doing in the kung fu movies like because it stops here. — You don't go lower than anahhata. You don't go lower than than that with your you know the guiding the the etheric energy with the mind and you know you want to stay centered in the heart and so you would sublimate that energy and use it for the purposes of magic with at least one other partner who was of the opposite gender. And that's so the

18:21theory she she writes in her books like um esoteric orders and their uh and their their purpose or uh the initiate and and and his training and the mystical cabala for sure. Whereas the practice of it is exemplified in her works of fish fiction. um where you have the goat foot god corresponding to the malcou working you have uh moon uh the sea priestess corresponding to the uh yod working and it's only middle pillar sephiro and then you have uh the winged bull or the tepherith working you have

19:02uh I believe moon magic was the last one um for the dath working and beyond that I mean that's the abyss this. Wow. — So, um that this did exist in the higher grades of the Golden Dawn. According to a letter that we have by Moa Mathers. Um she's basically telling somebody, look, don't worry about it. It's that kind of magic is way way above your pay grade, so to speak. And it's not it's sexual the way I just described it. It's we're not having sex. Yeah. Is the those

19:34non-fiction works that Neon Dion produced, are they pretty digestible or does it take a lot of background knowledge to kind of comprehend what is being conveyed or what would you say? — The fiction or the non-fiction? — Um the I always get those confused. — Fiction is is like a novel just she made it up. — Fiction. So uh those books are you don't need a lot of occult knowledge with a lot of occult knowledge you will benefit I would say if anything you need more understanding of the cultural millu of

20:11that day to be able to understand just like what she was talking about on a on a very very mundane basis people don't talk like that anymore it's also English you know it's England in the 1930s 1920s you know, so it's it's not um something that we're very it's not like Harry Potter language. It's it's very different. Um and some people find it to be very dry. Um generally I find those people to be somewhat dull. No, I'm kidding. But uh it's um I would say they're

20:44they're books that you can read, you can finish them um if you don't get bored. Uh I would say push through it anyway. Um and then they're books that you're going to read multiple times. I mean, anything that Deion Fortune has ever written, I go back to it a year or two later and I'm [ __ ] blown away because there's there's more here. It's something I can just mine forever. — Yeah. Uh yeah, I would say that's definitely a component that drew me to The Golden Dawn. Um you know, the male

21:13female kind of collaborative dynamic. Uh just to me seemed like a more holistic feel intuitively. Um, — it is. But the thing is, you know, you've got to really keep a [ __ ] lid on it. One of the reasons these esoteric orders get such a bad rap is because people start [ __ ] each other. Yeah. — You know, they start having affairs, they start having sex and who's married and who's a couple in the temple, you know. Um, — fortunately, I've never been in a temple

21:42that was like that. I've been in temples with couples, you know, that are together. Um, but I've never, to my knowledge anyway, I've never been an attempt. But you hear it a lot that that happens. And it's because we have much looser sexual mores today. We have a culture of, you know, reckless affirmation. I would call it reckless affirmation. And um and when you're working with magical forces that you don't fully understand, most people have no idea that that these energies are

22:15psychosexual in nature and they just feel like, "Oh, I'm in love." Or, "Oh, I'm attracted." Or somehow, you know, she looked really great in that nemesis gown today. — Might be something they're into just off the side or whatever, you know. — But you gota you got to be careful with that there. That's the the con. It's definitely a a risk, but generally it's a um you know, it's a more it's certainly a more magically powerful environment,

22:45I'll say that much. — Yeah. And so if you had it ear your way, you know, in terms of like Freemasonry, h how would what would you hopes what would you hope for? Like, you know, I would say like maybe it'd be great obviously like a sort of like parallel independent branch of Freemasonry like that would be co-masonic or because I would assume — Oh, that already exists. — Oh, does it? Okay. — Yeah, there's there's there's something called universal co-masonry that women

23:14can join. Um it's not I wouldn't say that all Masonic all regular Masonic jurisdictions do not acknowledge that. Um I think California is kind of saying that you can there are female only Masonic like Masonic or co-ed Masonic institutions. There's female only, there's male and female, there's male only. Um but you know it's California. There's all sorts of wacky [ __ ] going on over there in the name of progress. — But that but that doesn't mean that — like North Carolina, my grand lodge is

23:51going to recognize that stuff. Um, — if I have my way, it's tough. You know, I was talking to Elliot Saxon about this last night. I was like, I wish everybody could become a Mason before they go to the Golden Dawn, even women, because it teaches you things, you know, and A lot of people will come cocky like, "Oh, I already know it's it's for someone else." Uh, that's a pretty good sign that you got no [ __ ] clue. Um, because all sorts of things your life becomes extremely disrupted

24:26uh by by magic and and utilizing those energies and stirring them to to to awake. It goes so much. It goes so far beyond you know your dream work and your your scrying sessions and your tarot sessions. I mean you are undergoing alchemical initiations and unless you've already undergone true alchemical initiation you're not ready for true alchemical initiation. So the um I I masonry is something that hopefully stabilize and grounds the person in in objective morality, universal cause and

25:02effect, having your [ __ ] together, being a good person and not it it's it's like the antidote to this postmodern vampireism, this zombieism. Uh that that that postmodernism as a really as the way I think of it is a mental sickness. It's a mental violent virus — and it turns people it dehumanizes them to the point where that you know their behavior becomes um comparable to vampires, parasites, zombies. Masonry is a cure for that. It's an antidote. Um, but at the same time, you know, if

25:37masonry ever became co-ed, it would become something completely different because I know because I'm in co-ed, you know, initiatic orders and male and female when they come together, uh, it becomes something different. It it's not it wouldn't masonry would not be what it is now. And some people might say, well, you know, maybe that's for the best. It's like, well, that might be true, but um I think particularly in this day and age, men need a place to just be with men. Um, and not have to

26:14feel like they're hiding or beating back some sort of uh, you know, vitriolic accusation of masculinity. You know, we need a place to come together. So I I I don't think women should be allowed in regular masonry, but as it stands, there is co-masonry. And you great, go ahead and why the [ __ ] do you need, you know, it's this whole fairness thing. It's like, well, you well, you have to acknowledge what I'm doing. Who gives a company [ __ ] do it, benefit from it, move on. You

26:53don't need anybody's approval, you know? So it's just do it and be done with it. it, you know, like what kind of insecurity are you coddling, nourishing, fanning, you know, that's an insecurity that you are [ __ ] fanning. You're making it worse. You're picking a scab by needing other people to say what you do is valid. We recognize you. Who gives a [ __ ] Do it. Benefit. Be done with it. It exists. You know, co-masonry exists. You shouldn't need to come to our dinners. Totally. So yeah, ideally it

27:29would be like, you know, just maybe something that was obviously masonry remain existent as it does, but ideally be more acceptable to have moreic um bodies or acceptance of that in an individual sort of like uh setting or something like that. — Yeah. I mean, there's there's all sorts of stuff in regular masonry that women can join, like the Order of the Eastern Star and Amaranth and stuff like that, and you don't you could just join, you know. Um, — so it's is it masonry? Is it the same thing

28:09we're doing? I don't know. I I don't belong to either of those organizations. Um, and I'm not really interested in them because uh, you know, they first of all, I have enough reasons to tell my partner, hey, I got to go out tonight for, you know, three [ __ ] hours. I don't need another thing. So, but then also it's like, what am I trying to do? — What what's what's my why here? Are we getting lost in the is it has it become me collecting magical merit badges just

28:42so this way when I stumble upon inevitably stumble into a conversation that two Masons are having or two esoterists are having I can be in the no I don't give a [ __ ] you know it's so uh it's it's kind of like that I don't really know what goes on in Eastern Star but I do know that you know Many women enjoy it. Uh like all forms of masonry right now, numbers are dwindling. I would say if you are a female that wants to get involved in masonry and understand, you know, Masonic ritual, I would do the

29:27co-masonry thing. I wouldn't do I would do the universal co-masonry route. I wouldn't I wouldn't say go join Amaranth. It's not — you're not going to be doing the same thing. — Definitely. Yeah. And it's funny what you were saying like I think I it was maybe with Sam Tripley when I was having a conversation with him. I don't know. He brought it up. Maybe I brought it up. But that point exactly because there's a curiosity in the question about you know what's what's

30:02going on in these esoteric orders or um like it gets conflated often with nefarious purposes and this sort of fear-based mindset of the unknown and um the things happening in the world that people see as degenerate degenerating the world and society. And a lot of people will make these connections and they'll link things like Freemasonry and I'm like, dude, it's the complete opposite. Like those sort of systems are the antidote to the problems. It's like they're the they are

30:44the the only systems in place that are providing individuals with the methods by which they can refine and purify themselves and become better people and contribute more effectively to society. — Religion's done. Religion is not doing that anymore. So that's that's kind of off the table with with your, you know, your stand, you know, your your um mainstream religious route. You're not if you're following all their rules and and and dog dogma and doctrine, it's um it's not going to take you where you

31:23think it's taking you. Um or where maybe you hope it'll take you when you when you start out. But you're absolutely right. And the thing is like that's why we have a target on us. You know, there there is an overarching uh I I mean, let's come on. If you can't see it, like there's something seriously [ __ ] wrong with you. You have to be broken. You have to be [ __ ] broken. There's something that it's funny. You either notice the programming or you're programmed,

31:53— you know, like that that kind of saying. If you're not aware of it, then it's it's got you, you know. Um and uh there is definitely an a a fullcale uh assault on these types of organizations and it's all in an effort to completely sever us from the root of uh what it means to be a human. — That's the mo the most important mystery we have to contemplate and the key that we have is what it means to be a human. And we've we we've since the 1950s, we've pretended like we don't know, but

32:33there's millennia of tradition and thought and ceremony and and agreement on what it means to be a human being and they have they're chopping the [ __ ] away at us uh you know at at the root. — Absolutely. And it's like, you know, for example, something like free speech or debate, like a lot of people will point out that's like one of the huge things that people are worried about and is that people will be cut off from being able to freely express themselves and their beliefs and their views. And there are

33:15obviously entities at play attempting to do that. And then when I see them draw these correlations, oh this this is this and here's some gamatria and this guy's grandfather was a 33rd degree Freemason and all this stuff. And I'm like have some conversations with some actual people that are involved in these things. Those are people you can actually have a well-rounded conversation with that are going to allow you to express your ideas. Not not they're like the people I've talked

33:56to, you Jamie, Jake, I don't know how many um individuals at this point. I myself am not a Freemason, but I have a lot of friends who are and they're some of the best people I know and they're some of the most uh integral people I know and they're able to have conversation and they're excited about um freely expressing yourselves and promoting that um freedom and like that's just one small example of of things like that. It's like like you said it's like we're aiming at

34:35the wrong people and I don't know it just drives me so crazy like it makes me frustrated. Well, that's also that's also part of the [ __ ] sigh up, you know, is to get you down and to get you mad. Now, the thing is a lot of people don't know how to use anger. Um, you can use anger. Uh, the key is to always have, so to speak, the shepherd's crook over the flail. You know, it's you've got like in the ancient Egyptian uh you know, the depictions of the the pharaoh on their sarcophagi, they had

35:16the shepherd's crook, meaning they were the good, gentle, dutiful leader of the nation, and they had the catinetails, the the whip, the flail, you know. Um and in the Golden Dawn, you know, uh we we conceptualize the the left side of the body is actually the the pillar of mercy and the right side of the body is the pillar of severity because you back into the tree of life in your sphere of sensation. So the left, the side of mercy always gates the side of severity. So if severity is going to be let out, it's

36:02because mercy has decided to let it out. And so that's how you use anger. Um you don't let anger use you. Now I come across as a very canankerous person. You know, 10 years ago, I didn't have to be this way, you know. Um, maybe I should have been, but uh, we had a conversation about kind of becoming that universal, you know, that Mercury and and being able to to lean more to one side towards the the sulfurous, towards the fiery, towards the red, and then also towards the the the the saline, the salt, you

36:42know, the watery and the earthy. Um, and and that's what Mercury can do. It's the mediator. It's composed of both of those things. And so we live in a time now where there is a as I am saying there is a fullscale war on uh you know um people like me and the societies that I I I move in and and um so I'm not going to be uh friendly because I can't there's a certain you know to me and we'll go a little gnostic right now. Um, I don't believe that that let's let's

37:20get it clear it straight out of the gate. You know, uh, I've had conversations with very very well educated people and they seem to think that nasticism is this world-hating thing. That's not the case. And I can't believe from some of the smart, brilliant, educated, knowledgeable people that I that I've spoken with that they subscribe to that worldview. Um it's just imperfect. She said Sethianostics. Yeah, sure. You're talking about, you know, the Elohim and the Archons raping uh Eve and uh but on

37:55the other hand, you've got the Valentinians and you've got the Baselians who believe that the the demiurge is not, you know, uh intentionally malevolent, but just ignorant of what's beyond, you know, what is higher than it uh the absolute. Um and and there's a there's a modicum of repentance you know that you and I have covered in the baselian sense where when the Christ incarnates you know it kind of reveals to the demiurge itself like oh my god there is something higher than me and the demiurge repents you

38:28know so it's and these are all just modes of expressing an idea which is the imperfection and the impermanence of materiality that's not to say that there isn't a a tilos a divine purpose for it but let's call a spade a spade, you know, because it's in neoplatanism, it's in hermitism, it's in pltonism, it's in hermeticism, it's it's in orphism, it's in Pythagoreanism. It's all there. And how people cherrypick and selectively read and selectively interpret.

39:02That to me is the great unanswered [ __ ] question. It's like I have all the answers except why people choose willful ignorance. It's right there in front of you. It's right there. All you have to do is pick up the documents and [ __ ] read them. And it's all saying the same thing, you know, which is matter is not evil in itself, but when pursued for its own ends can destroy the soul. The purpose of the human is to incline upwards so to speak more towards the divine than towards

39:43uh the material and act as a mediator. But and yes you keep both you keep a foot in both worlds. But the thing is the material compels the lower parts of our nature more than the divine compels the higher parts. So the effort that you have to lean a little heavy towards the divine in order to be the mediator because materiality especially now has gotten you by the short and curies. So, it's um that's I mean that's it's just uniform. I don't understand why people uh don't they can't you know it's

40:27because they have knee-jerk reactions. They read something they don't like and they run instead of saying, "Okay, hold on. Don't panic. Sit with this. Read it. Think about it. Think about the exper your lived experience about the [ __ ] pain and misery and horror of existence. That's right there, right next to the beautiful and the and the glorious and the the tender. You they they they don't cancel each other out. They're co-evil, co- terminous and um you know, but to me,

40:59all that having been said, I am I consider myself a gnostic, you know, completely. There are forces here that want to incline us towards the material. Highly kind of does that in and of itself. It keeps us in this trap. Buddha said it, right? Samsara versus Nirvana. The Christ said it. The kingdom of heaven versus, you know, the kingdom of earth, you know, the earthly kingdom. I mean, it's all there. Um but uh there are forces here that absolutely want us to focus on the mundane, the hilic and

41:33and drag the soul continually downward. I cannot say for exactly what purposes. Um I it might be a test. It might be this. It might be that. I don't really know. But I find pacifism. I find this new age resignation to you know it it'll be what it'll be. I find all of that, you know, just the way they neuter us. They spay and neuter us from having any kind of at a certain point, right? When total domination of your ability to use your free will, which is a god-given gift, right? We have a deterministic

42:19component which is our biology but we have a free will component which are the choices that we make based on those situations. Um and anything that tries to take away the free will component needs to be stopped by any means possible. That's when mercy lets severity out of the cage. And what they've done is they've convinced us that spirituality somehow is just don't worry about it. Everything is one. It'll all be fine. Peacefulness, pacifism. Um, and that is that's the most insidious

42:58part of all of this [ __ ] Agreed. Yeah. That's hilarious because you get these people to like you mentioned um like people will read something and you know they don't like and they'll run. There's also this thing like where individuals will be intrigued by something and like you know they'll be like oh yeah this look at this these people were into some weird stuff. I mean this guy was trying to create a humuncculus and he wrote all these books about the humunulus and then you know start going

43:39on these adventures of exploring this subject. Meanwhile saying how strange it is that this guy was interested in this subject. Meanwhile, a hundred years from now, he's he's going to be pointing his finger at the same exact person because that's the same exact thing that that person was doing was being interested in exploring a subject. And it's like, it's just so ironic and strange to me. It's like they want to pretend like they're against something that they don't know anything about because they

44:15don't know anything about it. So it weirds them out and then they kind of like badmouth it or put all these perceptions on it, but meanwhile they're so intrigued and promoting content about it and making their livelihood off of this content that they're making about it. And it's just like that [ __ ] happens all the time. And it's like so strange to me. I just wanted to throw that out there. — It's perplexing. Also, they find people like me dangerous. Um, you know,

44:48mentality wise where it's like you shouldn't feel so strongly about anything. You shouldn't be so convinced of of anything. Um, because why? Because we have a million different instances from TV and the media and the news about how people who are really really passionate do things like Jonestown or, you know, they're they're the [ __ ] uh Apple White cult, the Hailbop Comet, you know, uh suicide cult, and they start these these cults and and it's uh you know, they're they they they become

45:22terrorists and it's all this overexaggerated sense of um you know, don't buy in, don't buy in. Don't buy in. Keep everything and everyone at [ __ ] arms length. And I did that for 30 years, you know, until I I had literally a spiritual awakening that I think everybody comes to at a certain point, you know, uh that the the the the figures in our traditions that we point to, you know, whether it's Plato, Prolas, whether it's uh, you know, uh the prophet Elijah, whether it's, you

45:57know, um somebody like Kagglestro, whether it's somebody like uh um uh you know, whichever whichever Buddha you want to pick. It's like these people didn't have chill, you know? It's that's not what they you know, it's like that's the watered down western version of like Buddhism and Zen. It's like when people were doing this stuff, you know, and going to [ __ ] caves up on a mountain to go and meditate, I guess, for like months or like years. It's not because like you understand they didn't

46:36have medicine. Like they they were subjecting themselves to the elements. They were subject subjecting themselves to the possibility of of predators. You know, they didn't have a door. or didn't have locks. Like some of these people were literally sitting in caves and things like that. And uh you know, at least according to legend and stuff like that and these retreats, these aesthetics that still have to beg for alms to be able to to get by, you know, it's not you. They live extreme

47:06lifestyles, you know, because that is really the only sane reaction to a world this [ __ ] insane, you know. a world this extreme. Uh so um it's very easy for us couched in our little, you know, American western lifestyles of like I don't know how to be anything. I just know how to buy and wear, you know, I know how to buy and put it on me like it's like I'm a [ __ ] Christmas tree, but I don't know what it means to be any of these things. So what we do is we take the most palatable version, the one

47:44that subconsciously panders very gently to our, you know, our our secret desires, our our our confirmation bias. Oh, I knew spirituality was all about, you know, basically checking out. I knew spirituality was just deep breathing, you know, like it's like um it's [ __ ] insane. And then of course there's this appeal to like personal nosis where it's like well you know my guides told me this or I had this experience. It's like you you can't abandon yes I'm not saying that that

48:20type of contact is fake. First of all it's extremely difficult to have reliably. Everybody who's had those experiences says that. And then um entire orders like the Golden Dawn are created to be able to facilitate you doing that safely and reliably. Um, and if that didn't need to happen, if you were just so special, uh, you know, um, orders like mine wouldn't exist. — Uh, but then on the other hand, you know, it's like how much of that is your subconscious? How much of that is you

48:51pandering to yourself? How much of that is escapism, wish fulfillment fantasy that you're now taking and literally running the rest of your life? You're running that race like that, holding that [ __ ] baton. and a lot of times in the wrong direction. So, um it's it's way more nuanced and it's way more uh it's, you know, I would say it's like things are simplex. They're simple but also complex. You know, it's it's not not everything is just, you know, the Buddha holding up a flower and

49:27giggling, you know, like that that famous tale. It's like it's not that's also an aesthetic that you've been sold in order to like, you know, this [ __ ] [ __ ] minimalism so you don't own any property anymore, you know? It's all it's all part of an aesthetic push to influence you towards a certain a certain disposition or predelection. Yeah. And it's funny like so many things so many it's kind of one of the bones I have to pick with the kind of um I don't know mainstream iterations of

50:04like crit Christian uh organizations just to pick a fair example that's easy and understandable from my own experience it's a very common experience there'll be there'll be like, I think you use the word cult. They'll be like, oh, the the LDS, the Mormons, that's a cult. Like, that's don't stay away from that cult. They're weird. Or Jehovah Witness, that's just a weird cult or something like that. Stay away from this thing. yada yada. Meanwhile, they start a cult being anti

50:35whatever the [ __ ] thing they're saying is a cult. And it's like, what is a cult? Like a sect, a religious system? Like, so so what? Now we should elimin eliminate everyone else's and be in opposition to everybody else's belief systems that we don't agree with because it doesn't agree with ours. Like what the [ __ ] Like it's so bonkers. Yeah. And and I mean that's that's that is one of the the dangers of feeling very very strongly about something. But the the you know a

51:09the main difference to me between people who have a sense of what I would call justified righteousness and people who have a sense of um self-righteous right righteousness are typically like one of those people knows what they're talking about and the other one doesn't. And how that's how that's determined is not arbitrary. It's not subjective. Um, you know, but then again, there's that whole post-modern ideology, that perspective, that perceptive filter that says, well, you

51:44know, what is truth? And and well, it's it's true for this person. Um, which again, again, it's mental gymnastics. It's sophistry, and it's neuro, it's really, it's a part of neural linguistic programming. It's it's a series of chess moves to nullify anybody that's pointing at something they don't want you to see. Um and uh you know typically like yeah of course — you know Christians particularly Catholics and and Orthodox you drink the blood and eat the body of

52:21your savior. Um you know and you have rituals and you have rights of initiation. Catholics are initiated. Orthodox are initiated. you know, it's called baptism, confirmation, you know, um that's rights of initiation in Christianity. So, you're in a cult, too, to be honest with you. I mean, the way that the word is thrown around, everything's a [ __ ] cult. This government's a cult. Zoom, YouTube is a cult, you know? So, it's just about which one do you want to be a part of,

52:54you know? and and it's like you you need I'm glad that you point out that a lot of us Masons that you've spoken with I think you've got a very good selection of people that you've talked to um we are we have a great depth and wealth of learning that transcends the purely rational — and I think that that is one of the hallmarks of people who have a justified sense of righteousness, which is really just um an intense an intense sense of justice. You know, I have a very I have a

53:38profound sense of justice that has gone unmet for my the duration of my life. Um I see I'm not just talking about social justice. I'm talking about the spiritual injustice which is the it's literally the root cause of every other kind of injustice you know so it's like do we want to try and you know put corks in the in the in the holes in the ship or do we want to fix the problem you know do we putting band-aids on on a sinking ship or are we finding the problem which is spiritual in nature but and they know

54:16that you know and that's Why extensive and sophisticated systems of rhetoric and semantics taking the form of neural linguistic programming and post-modern ideologies have essentially pulked out our spiritual eye. We're not able to even look in that direction a lot of us anymore um because that's where the problem is, you know. So, it's like, yeah, of course you're going to cover it up by any means necessary. And like I say all the time, you cannot kill the truth, but you can you can obscure our

54:55ability to see it. — Yeah. And and it's so it's not it's not like all maces hold the same core focus in terms of their spiritual practices. It's it's to me it's one of the most beautiful things ever because I can have a conversation with somebody that's like very invested in a spiritual lifestyle revolving around like Hinduism or something like that and then have another conversation with somebody that's their spiritual pursuits are more heavily invested in uh Catholicism

55:29or whatever. But the beauty about I think kind of going back to something like what the uh system of Freemasonry does in terms of like inculcating those virtues on just a human level. is it allows people to refine their uh their selves in a way that they're able to see the value and beauty in others regardless of whether um others hold the same like spiritual traditions. there's there's like commonality in terms of you know they have a a higher spiritual power that's pretty much you know that's like a

56:23common core uh connective component but aside from that it's all you know it's whatever you ch it's your your life everybody has their own independent um individual uh spiritual pursuits and it's something that's uh valued amongst each other and I don't know. Yeah. It's just to me that's like one of the the things that I I feel is very beautiful about that. — Well, that's the thing, right? I mean, you look at it like, okay, in World War II or in the Civil War, you have

57:03instances of both sides stopping and, you know, for like Christmas over a ceasefire and both sides meeting and having like a Masonic lodge type of thing, you know, or or meeting in fellowship, opposing sides. Now, that doesn't mean that when they leave from that Masonic, you know, bond, they're not going to try and kill each other. They're going to go back and try and kill each other. That's that's exactly what happened. But masonry creates the what Michael Bertio called the temporary autonomous

57:42zone. where the rules of outside society and the requirements of outside society, particularly those that divide us, are left at the door. And that is assiduously uh preserved and guarded in every Masonic um lodge that I've ever been inside of or been to. And it gives us practice in doing that, right? No person can agree with anybody you know can agree I should say can agree with everybody nobody can do that you know you can not say anything you can pretend you can you know there you're going to come across

58:22somebody that you really disagree with you know and and it's true masons I say it all the time I close a lot of my my Masonic talks with you know yes we are brothers um but it's still called labor you know we work together but it's still called labor because it's not easy to do that. It's not just this kind of like, you know, you're in you're in high school and, you know, uh I don't know, we're all passing weed around a circle and I, you know, it's like it's it's not

58:51this like just this very easy chill thing. It it can be very difficult especially with expectations and with uh hierarchical power dynamics you know and and I mean men young men and old men the the some people need to pay their dues you know some people are are getting too big for their britches some people want to make changes that are too quick that are too radical that are unrealistic uh somebody's more interested in in in you know there's a financial concern that's being ignored they're not being heard

59:23it's all part of it But the this the structure of masonry itself puts rules in place that prevent us from acting on those things that isn't in you know harmony in the interest of harmony uh with each other. So it's it it really is an amazing training and you start to learn you know yeah I don't have to agree with everybody. I can actually vehemently disagree with you and my points can still remain perfectly valid, but uh at the end of the day, like arguments, you know, arguments are not irreconcilable. You

1:00:03know what I'm saying? It's like it's part of being human. We're going to butt heads. You're going to butt heads with people for Christ's sake. We've been doing it since we've been on planet Earth. It's part of the human experience. When people are willing to accept the disagreements and arguments and debates, even heated ones are are part and parcel with the human experience. The same way sex is, the same way death is, the same way dinner is. When they accept that, they'll be

1:00:30that's part of integration. You know, everybody talks about shadow work, but nobody It's like you you need to be argumentative when you need to be argumentative, you know? — Yeah. Part of the human [ __ ] experience. It's like you like it doesn't have to be viewed as a negative thing. Like my friend Tom Brown put it some way on one of our interviews where he was saying it's arguments are like a mathematical equation to be solved. Like it's like argumentation effectively

1:01:02is supposed to be like a little bit of back and forth of trying to kind of reconcile an equation. like it's like you have to work out the problem and if you don't the problem remains like um so it's definitely got a purpose and you know with going back to like what we were talking about with all these things like with Freemasonry and having that place of like you said it's kind of outside the bounds of it's a space where um this thing can exist that's sort of outside of societ society

1:01:40and it's like what happens when that disappears? People have no place to turn. Uh like they become so easily served by whatever power structures that are available or dictators or immoral social trends that you know that kind of take over. They become ungrounded. Like individuals have to have a place to um have this sort of thing. That's like you said, it's like the antidote. And it I think it's part of the reason why guys like Jordan Peterson are so successful right now largely

1:02:17because he, you know, he stands his ground and sort of exemplifies an integral morality. And they don't really teach morality in school. And you just have to hope you have a a you know you you got got lucky and had some good parents that maybe you know inculcated some good virtues and are raising you in a healthy and effective way. But there's no there's not a lot of places to go. And that's another reason why in terms of like um you know popular new ways of making an income for a lot of people it which

1:03:00is has it it's a double-edged sword because it has its pros and cons but things like self-help systems or uh self-help groups or things like these are very popular these days because there's a giant gap like that's something that is on the collective in society. It's a need. It's something it's a there's a demand for it and that's that's why these things are are so successful. But of course with that comes a lot of [ __ ] and scamage and a lot of that stuff as well. And I think

1:03:39that there was some things that you were wanting to talk about that might be related. I mean, maybe not. Uh, but you know, career, oultism, things along these lines. Um, maybe that could tie into it. But let's see what your thoughts were on that. — Yeah. I mean, one thing that I want to say about um I just feeling called to say that like there's we we're we really love we we're kind of it's it's so strange the American psyche, the product of of and I say American because I'm I'm an

1:04:17American. You know, my father's Greek, my mother's family's from Italy, but I'm I'm I'm American. I I don't know what it's like to grow up and live uh in those cultures and societies in the modern day, but we're I don't the you know something is completely broken down. We we're such extreme people where it's like we're either like head over heels about a platitude, you know, something completely platitudinous, you know, which is just very superficially like uh follow your

1:04:54dreams, you know, like there's so much nuance there that's like, you know, there's so many details and the devil's in the details because your dreams Now, you know, when you're 19 might be completely antithetical, might lead you to a place when you're 30, you might be like, "Holy [ __ ] these aren't my dreams anymore, and I didn't give myself time and space to think about what was to develop into what is valuable to me. What who am I as a human being? What can

1:05:23I do sustainably long term that will agree with my core belief system and my, you know, that that internal foundation, you know?" So we are either in love, we go head over heels with the platitudes, or we say like, "Oh, it's all bullshit." Yeah. All it's like this gotcha culture, this this intellectual, you know, this just obnoxious dweeb uh know-it-all kind of culture where like nothing's real, you know, like like that that shitty William Burroughs quotes that all the

1:05:51chaos magicians like to to dang. It's another it's a platitude of its own, you know, nothing is true, everything is permitted. It's another platitude. Um but we we we oscillate between those things and one of the platitudes that we've kind of swallowed wholesale is this idea of um you know well there's this idea it's like I can do whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting anybody. Well there's a huge flaw in that [ __ ] argument because a lot of the things that people do while

1:06:22just while using that statement to justify is hurting themselves. So self harm is a big thing. Okay. And we don't take that into account when we're talking about I'm not hurting anybody. You're hurting you. And when you hurt you, you hurt people that love you. — Mhm. — You know, and so that's that's a huge thing that you don't exist in a [ __ ] vacuum. It doesn't matter how selfish you you you wish or you hope or you somehow rationalize that you should or

1:06:51can be. You have you live with other people on this world. You're connected. You're not an island, you know. It's what is done, what damages you hurts them, you know, and if these are considerations. I'm not saying to live tethered to other, you know, to other people's expectations, but like where's the middle ground? — Gosh, you're so nuanced right now. — Yeah, we we've we've got I feel like I have to be because, you know, it's like people are just going to be, you know,

1:07:18they're gonna people will come for your argument no matter they'll come they'll come for you no matter what your argument is. Um but uh but that's what I'm here for. I'm here to do battle with um with idiots like that. But uh the the the thing is we have this idea of like okay well what about everything in moderation that I can get on board with. But there's a Greek philosopher that and I I don't forget who it was. It might might have been Heracitis. I'm not sure who

1:07:46which philosopher it was. But he said um partake in everything in moderation but avoid completely things that are specifically harmful. So that's more where I I fall in that. I don't think it's like there are certain behaviors, there are certain substances, there are certain things in life that fundamentally alter the neurochemistry of the individual to incline them towards excessive use. So just because you're dealing with it right now and you're moderate, you that substance is not a substance that is

1:08:30known for moderation. It may lead you little by little pulling you by the nose hair. — Suicide in moderation. — Yeah. — Right. Exactly. So, um, so anyway, I don't know why, but I felt like I had to say that. So, I'm glad I I'm glad I did. Um but I think we were touching on you you were kind of bringing it towards um something that I had mentioned about this careerism um spiritual careerism that as we as we reach this new frontier um where you know there are are horrors

1:09:08daily um you know what's going on in Gaza the the threat of another pandemic possibly that they're dangling over our head this whole idea that Um society is going to completely change. The economy is basically broken. Um we are careening towards the ground. All right. Our falling no longer feels like flying like it did for the past you know 10 20 years. So inevitably when things like that when when we reach you know periods in history like that um people start to get religious again um and people start to

1:09:47get quote unquote spiritual again. And we see that happening with this this big big influx uh to the occult and you know esoteric spirituality communities. And one of the things I want to bring to, you know, I want to bring to the four is this idea of careerism. Um, because I see it in a lot of people right now. And, you know, I by no means mean to be the the pot calling the kettle black, especially if like you had to, you know, pay us $5 on the Patreon this month to listen to this stuff. you know there there is a give and take

1:10:32uh that enables we we live in a society that is I mean the cost of living is completely outrageous um it's stifling um the taxes and everything like that I mean even even just like menial [ __ ] traffic court you know meters uh red light, red light cameras, they nickel and dime you so that you they the minute you get up, they take your shins out again, you know, with a lead pipe and it takes longer for you to get up the next time. That's just what that's the way this government and this economy

1:11:16has been built since the 1910s 20s you know uh maybe before I don't know but um so yeah you I in order to be able to spend three hours tonight three hours last night uh eight hours today eight hours tomorrow eight hours a day before to write a book that I'm not seeing a penny on you know and to sit here and do these podcasts you Five bucks a month is not it's not I'm not bleeding any, you know, and it's um and there's more content that I'm giving away completely for free. I don't make

1:11:53any money off of it. Zero. Um, so that said, — there is though a a a predatory element I see a little bit of and and not and and aside from the predator, the predatory stuff is kind of it's for your witch talk people that are just getting into this stuff. Most of the people listening to this podcast not either they've already been roped into that and moved on or they're not going to get involved with it. But um it's out there. And one thing that I do see is, you know, there's that extreme, but

1:12:27there's this middle ground of people that are behaving in ways that are disingenuous and fundamentally antithetical to a spiritual path, which is the truth. Truth doesn't have to be nice. It just has to be the truth. Um, and the further you deviate from that truth and you tell a lie, um, and you begin to appropriate ideas, um, and you acquire them. That's been, and I I'm I'm not trying to chide anybody here. I'm trying to alert them to what they may be seeing or what they

1:13:03may one day be doing without realizing it. Because just because it's normalized doesn't mean it's right. Um but that's one of the hardest things that I have found is that I have a lot of ideas. I have a lot of opinions and I worked however long I had to work in whatever millu whether that's reading and writing and researching or whether that's meditation and whether that's prayer whether it's ritual but I had to spend a lot of time and a lot of effort to get nuggets but really

1:13:35what those nuggets are the glimpses of the truth and I don't own the truth I do not own the truth and I can't lay claim to those things. Um, and I can't claim intellectual property, you know, for the law of gravity. — Exactly. — You can't you that's not your intellectual property. But, you know, I do think that uh one of the great things that that academia is doing um in in its involvement with the occult and I see this, you know, now writing books and stuff like that. um is is citations,

1:14:20you know, and incorporating the people that gave you the idea into and doing it responsibly and doing it respectfully because that's really what it's about here. It's about respect. It's not about clout. It's not about visibility. Whoever's meant to see is going to see it. And if you're trying too hard, you can [ __ ] fall. I guarantee you because that's not what this path is, you know? This is the harder you try, the harder it gets, you know? So, it's it's one of those things where you need

1:14:48to be guided if you really seriously want to do this. Um, but but you know, to be able to edge out some of this competitiveness that I'm seeing in this burgeoning field of uh you know, occult erudition and and um the the competition does not it's not doing well here. The type of competition that you need is you need to be a better researcher. you need to be um more experienced, but you know, kind of this I'm more esoteric than you [ __ ] is like uh it's really [ __ ] weird to me.

1:15:33I was having dinner with somebody the other night that was uh they came to they came to Golden Dawn Temple meeting and to to meet you know to talk about potential initiation like oh you know this guy oh you know this guy I can't believe and I was I looked at the other temple chief and I'm like man fate is [ __ ] sick you know it's like when I got involved with this [ __ ] I was embarrassed I was embarrassed at all these people you know it's like it's not not something I'm I was like you know

1:16:00like and now now people walking around make you feel like you're a Rockstar for what? You know, it's ridiculous. So, uh, I have kind of experienced this head check and I wanted to talk about it because I see a lot of particularly in the Masonic community because it's a lot of those guys there's a Masonic speaking like a lecture route and stuff like that and a lot of those guys are just, you know, um, kind of I don't know, there's this really strange uh, lurk and poach culture that's that's

1:16:37uh in the in that Masonic kind of social media slash um uh you know the lecture circuit sort of thing and it's all about visibility and it's all about and you know that's one of the cons of masonry is that they there's always that that yeah it's like yes we're supposed to be humble but like you get into SRIA and like the chief guy there is a supreme magus like how are you how are you doing spir spiritual work calling yourself [ __ ] Supreme Megas, you know. So, there's there's a little bit of that and

1:17:09the lapel pin collection and stuff like that. That's just not healthy. It's not spiritually healthy. You can give me any line of [ __ ] you want and I'm not going to agree with you. It's not spiritually healthy to have sashes and lapel pins and fancy titles and hierarchy that um we're supposed to meet on the level. I don't know that we do all the time. Um, so, uh, I just wanted to say that for any of thatbody that that that message might reach, don't worry about becoming

1:17:40this successful occultist. That's [ __ ] weird to want to do that. Speak if you have a message. Take 10 years and don't say anything like I did, like a lot of other people who did. Don't open your [ __ ] mouth. spend 10 years, 11 years, 12 years in these societies, in these books, and then if you still feel like you have something to say, there's a burning message, then say it. But don't go around, you know, uh, cherrypicking stuff and presenting it uh, like you're an occult scholar because I mean,

1:18:20ultimately you can do whatever you want. [ __ ] me, right? But I'm telling you, that's not the way. like you're not gonna get where you want to go doing that. And I, you know, I I failed many times at that doing it in music, you know, and and trying to fit that role and dress the part and, you know, and it becomes, you know, what what was once a beautiful community of particularly where I'm from, Long Island, late 90s, Long Island was amazing. It was one of the best. It's one of the best musical communities in

1:18:53the world. And then you get bands like uh Brand New, you get bands like Glass Jaw, Stray Light Run, uh you know, Envy on the Coast for anybody that's into like that kind of indie rock scene. It exploded. And that community where everybody's working together, planning shows, became a [ __ ] scramble for the door, you know, trampling each other. Me first, me first. Me, me, me, me. Destroyed the community. Um, and so I don't want to see that happen to this community because I see that that like

1:19:23sneaky competition happening again. And um, I just want to call it out. I'm not going to call anybody specifically out, but um, you know, music and this stuff have a lot in common. Um, you can anybody who's been in it, you know, beyond a certain age, I mean, you can smell [ __ ] from a mile away. So, uh, that's kind of all I wanted to say. I want to get that out there. And I I want to say that, you know, like I'm not above that either. I'm still working it out and and and tempering

1:20:01these things. And but I think if I can be a voice to kind of like alert people like, "Hey, don't come on." Like, "Let's nip this [ __ ] in the bud, then uh, you know, I feel like I'd be doing a service to people who are kind of grappling with it like I was." — Yeah. I hate the competitive mindset. Um, collaboration versus competition. That's the way to go in my opinion, 100%. Um, everybody that I admire personally, that's the people that I like to connect with, and those are the people I

1:20:39want in my sphere because it's a win-win for everyone. And you can do so much more when you're creating with other people. And like you say, like you can't patent the truth and you can't claim to be the disseminator of truth or the uh sole arbiter of truth or whatever. like and it's funny cuz I've been contemplating writing something like a book perhaps and in doing so just having all these thoughts about you know I I want to if I'm going to do something like that I want it to be of

1:21:30value and I don't want it to be um inaccurate or misrepresent things. And in order to do that, there's no way for me to do that without leaning on the giants of the past or even the present yourself. like leaning on the people that are the ones that have the experience or have the um years under their belt exploring certain subject matters and have gone through picked apart all the things that I'm just now learning about things like that. Um, so yeah, I just find that like super interesting and like, you know,

1:22:22you mentioned like obviously like things like we're doing the Patreon, you know, it's a very fair contribution or a very fair ask in terms of what's being provided because there's just so many people providing so much [ __ ] and such [ __ ] Like it's like getting scraps out of the trash can and then selling it to people and it's just like disingenuous and it's so like you know we have all get these [ __ ] Instagram DMs like, "Hi, I just wanted to reach out. Just feeling

1:23:01really called by spirit to send you a message from my guides. send $50 to my Venmo and I'll share what my angel from Zeta Reticuli wants you to know or some [ __ ] like that. Or greetings, this is the lord of the Illuminati. Join the Illuminati today and make millions of dollars or it's like [ __ ] we've got I'll stop I'll stop sending you those messages — like we've got nosis for sale. Come get your nosis. buy buy two money magic spells and get agnostic experience free

1:23:33and just [ __ ] I don't know, man. It's crazy. — Yeah. I mean, some people are like those are bots and scams and [ __ ] like that. I mean, like a lot of people and and this is probably something you should make a clip for Instagram. — What they don't realize, — you're way too [ __ ] early in your journey to to have a [ __ ] YouTube channel. It's too early. You've been doing this for three, four years, you know? Even if you, you know, it's like there's so much more to the occult. I

1:24:01would say that even a Mason would need to spend like 10 15 years before they said anything because masonry doesn't necessarily have [ __ ] all to do with the occult. There are some, you know, like it's like this very very very like I don't know, occultism light. I'm not try I'm not trying to to poo poo it like you need to start there. I did. Everyone does. you know, if you start elsewhere, you're going to be ungrounded. You're not going to be able to. But the thing is, I have a feeling from what I've

1:24:32seen, you're really going to regret some of the things you put up on the internet forever uh in in five years when it's like, oh, okay, — I've learned a little more. I'm a little older. I'm a little wiser. Um I don't need to do this like daily calendar of like you know uh did you know that you know this you know this thing means that it's like um we need high value people you know we need like you're saying everyone's got you by the nosis you know but it's it's um we need more people who

1:25:07who really know what they're doing and the academics even though they bother the [ __ ] [ __ ] out of me. Um, in a lot of their wholesale dismissal of the spiritual truths that are inherent to this stuff, it's not their job. It's not their job to affirm that stuff. Okay? What they've done for somebody like me is they've made me step my game up, you know, and and really remain engaged with what's going on. I can't turn I can't avert my gaze to what they're doing because

1:25:41they're doing really good academic work that synthesizing it's amplifying the spiritual stuff if you know you need to be con like fluent fluent in both you have to be fluent in the spiritual stuff you have to have experienced it and I'm not talking about masonic ritual you know I'm talking about I I would say daily regular regimented practices that lead you to a gnostic experience um and some form of of awakening that includes the complete or at least significant transformation of everything about you.

1:26:27Um, and if that doesn't happen, then it's like we don't really, you know, I don't need to hear from you, you know, it's and because there's like you're saying to your point, there's so much out there. There's so much out there. So, it's like is your and this is a hard thing. I know people are going to but butt heads with me against this. I have a right. Yes, you do. You absolutely have a right to to post whatever when I'm trying to advise you that it's like

1:26:56speak when you have something to say. Don't find something to talk about, you know? Don't like like Sky like you said, don't pull table scraps and then, you know, give it this really nice presentation. People not just want, they are in need of insight. Why? Because everything we think we [ __ ] know today, 20 years, right, today's wisdom is tomorrow's folly. Always. The only way you can you you can really and I don't even want to say hedge your bets, but the only way that the the compass of whether or not I

1:27:32should chime in should be can I provide personal insight. — Oh yeah. And that one thing I was going to say, something that really stood out to me that kind of sat with me that Mark Stavish said to me, we were talking about like more more adept type individuals and learning from them or having direct training or interaction with some of these people and he's like, if you want to be something along the lines of like if you want to be respected by these people, like you've got to bring

1:28:03something to the table. like you have to put forth a contribution and like even if that's something you're doing for someone else who's producing some great work or creative expression, maybe it won't have your name on it or you won't be credited and you shouldn't be like, but if you're can make yourself useful and contribute in whatever ways you can genuinely, I mean, then you're that's like you're doing the work. like you're putting in your effort and you're putting in your

1:28:35work and that's going to yield um positive results for you and like I've always personally tried to do that for myself and and for others and um that's been very like uh beneficial for me because I didn't try to come out and pretend like I uh understood anything about [ __ ] an alchemy for example, which you know still like it's just there's so much there like for me to pretend would be insane. You know what I mean? — Yeah. Well, alchemy too, you happen to pick like the most difficult part of

1:29:18like most — worthwhile though. — Most alchemists like know what they do. — Yeah. — That doesn't mean that they know alchemy because I don't think you can know alchemy, you know? It's just you got to find your path, your strategy, and work that and make your, you know, record your experiments. But it's like because I mean I've been laboring under the delusion that alchemy was a much more unified field than it actually is. But to your to your point, I mean, you've

1:29:45also in that trajectory, you've also become a boon to the people around you because it's like if I need if I'm having issues with stuff, like I sent you an alchemy chapter of of the book, if I have questions, you know, stuff that that you can answer, like I I really, you know, I can't just hit somebody up for that information like I can for you. So, it it, you know, you end up helping the people around you. And I think part of that, yeah, is humility. But I'll say this, and I want I want people

1:30:15that just to hear me and let it let it sit with you. I joined an esoteric order. Um, you know, almost a decade ago, I had been involved in in other things before that, you know, Eastern stuff. I was in the theosophical society for for a while and um studying this stuff forever. But I join I didn't I joined the esoteric order. began the alchemy and in a very short period of time it dawned on me and it was it hurt you know like it's almost like I got a little choked up when it when it when the voice in my

1:31:02head spoke and said you're at a crossroads up until this point you've gone down this path because you like the culture, you're drawn to the aesthetic. So, now is the time where it's do you want to be an initiate or do you want to continue to play the part of an occultist? Because they're two completely different things. When you choose to be the initiate and then go through the process that takes you through initiation, I would even say after that, wait a couple of years. That's when you're

1:31:59ready to start talking. You know, that's when you're ready. If you feel if you at that point, you still feel like I have something to say. I I can't I And it's not all in ego. There's this, you know, your ego has to play a part in it. It has to, you know, that's like saying like, well, you know, that's like if, you know, it's it's the instrument of the the the bornless self is the spirit. It's the same way my brain when I want to sip a tea, my brain can't jump out of my head

1:32:32and get and and it has to use the hand to embibe the tea. So, you know, you have to engage the ego, but the ego has to be taking orders from the the bornless self. It and if you really personally, I'm just going to put this out there. If you're not at that stage where you've not had that communion, I I I would seriously reconsider um just putting up stuff because I got to put I got to put something up today. you know, it's not ultimately worth it because what's happening is it's actually taking you further from

1:33:16where you you say you want to go. That's what that will do. Even this that I do now, it eats the [ __ ] up out of my time. Um, you know, and and you scraping to get by uh with with any kind of um you know, spiritual practice. But so you know if you've not had that contact that you can just kind of call on and you haven't developed these ways in which the self has been completely transformed by the gnostic experience. Um, it's like you just just sit tight, man. Keep keep chipping away at what

1:33:55you're doing because the end goal is not to die with a bunch of books that you've written, right? The end goal is to is to to become more than human, you know, which is to say fully human. — Yeah. Um, it's kind of related, you know, on the subject of something like books and information and putting content out there and something like um like a morals and dogma and that work And then you have Alfice Levy. So, there's this thing I've been wrestling around with in my head with

1:34:48this because, you know, when, like I was saying, thinking about putting a book together or something, wanting to record and depict the truth of certain things in a way that is compelling and correct and useful. um that is something maybe that can offer a people a digestible format or whatever. And then so when I think about something like morals and dogma for me personally I thought I haven't completely gone through it all but what I have is it's amazing and to me it I don't personally know what the parts

1:35:48of it were lifted or you know people say plagiarized by elephus Levy and I don't know what the intentions were of doing so if it was for the purposes of trying to rip somebody off or if it was for the purposes of trying to embody the truth in a work that was going to be massive that was going to reach the masses in a big way. So I have this like thing that I wrestle with in my head of how it doesn't really bother me if that is the case because of the value that it provides in terms of what it has created

1:36:30in the format that it has been done in. Do you know what I mean? — Yeah. And I think but you what you also got to understand is that neither of those men knew that those books were going to like be impactful. You know, I would say, you know, Levy had training as a journalist. So, he knew how to write in a way that was compelling, drew people to it. There was a sense of mystery around Levy. Whereas, I don't get the same sense of mystery from Pike. I get kind of this It's almost like I feel like I'm sitting

1:37:08in a room and it's just me. It's just my opinion. I'm not trying to say if you like it, you're you're a dope. It's not what I'm trying to do here. — I get it. — I'm just saying I'm I'm prefacing that